LordVader

Sooooo

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I'm curious to know how everyone's play testing is going with all of the FanZ and Royaken cards out there. Any broken combos or awesome ideas?

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I've only tried a couple things in fanz thus far. Mostly waiting for my proxy cards to come in the mail before I get too crazy. Seems pretty balanced so far.

 

Royaken has no interest for me since it won't be supported by the greater community. Also the cards i have looked at either seem 1 dimensional (boring) or totally broken.  Seems to be living in the score z past. Doesn't really seem to have a grasp on what is good with panz.

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2 hours ago, LordVader said:

I'm curious to know how everyone's play testing is going with all of the FanZ and Royaken cards out there. Any broken combos or awesome ideas?

Thanx for asking. I've had a good number of people play test my items already. Not Terror, Terror wasn't meant for anyone other than my friends and I for ScoreZ to PanZ play. Which is why it's being revised for better use with PanZ play. But so far, people who have play tested Fragments and Memories have had no complaints :). I hear Bardock works really good in Red, and King Kai in Black, but I kinda already expected that.

1 hour ago, v3rse said:

Royaken has no interest for me since it won't be supported by the greater community.

Totally get this. Building supporters though, so that's nice.

1 hour ago, v3rse said:

Also the cards i have looked at either seem 1 dimensional (boring) or totally broken.  Seems to be living in the score z past.

I mean... if you read ANYTHING about what I said about my old Terror set, then this wouldn't need to be said. Terror was ONLY made for me and my friends for ScoreZ to PanZ purposes. So, not living in the past, we wanted to try those out in PanZ format :/.

1 hour ago, v3rse said:

Doesn't really seem to have a grasp on what is good with panz.

I'm going to assume you haven't actually looked at my Fragments & Memories set. You're not obligated to by any means, but you can't make statements like that without proper information. Terror wasn't made with PanZ style in mind, just it's appearance format. Fragments and Memories was a collaboration between myself and a few other normal PanZ players and edited to be playable with all sets currently made by PanZ and FanZ which you would know if you looked at them... Everyone is clearly entitled to their opinion and I always appreciate constructive criticism, but opinions with inaccurate information because you didn't read what I said is just criticism.

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There is also Brian Z that is being gradually made atm. Just got up to having someone handle the graphics. Not sure how it'll turn out, but he seems to be a man of my own heart from what I've asked him about, Colour Identity is important to him. It's also a complete reboot and not a continuation, but I digress.

The topic at hand, no, haven't had the time. I'm not even sure I'd really want to when it comes to Pan Z as none of the cards really spark me and Future Gohan just seems really unenjoyable to play against. Might be tempted back two sets away with Majin Vegeta and Boo, but I sincerely doubt it. I don't have faith they'll do a good job.

There are things I'd like to try with Roy's game too, especially Videl. Really love his Videl design. But time is a concern. Since 2017 started, I think I've only gotten about a day a month to play TCGs.

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5 hours ago, v3rse said:

I've only tried a couple things in fanz thus far. Mostly waiting for my proxy cards to come in the mail before I get too crazy. Seems pretty balanced so far.

 

Royaken has no interest for me since it won't be supported by the greater community. Also the cards i have looked at either seem 1 dimensional (boring) or totally broken.  Seems to be living in the score z past. Doesn't really seem to have a grasp on what is good with panz.

Honestly I have play tested a lot with FanZ and the MP's are really oppressive (Saiyan Empowered Gohan). In testing with the cards that @Royakenand I work on they are a lot more balanced and fun than the FanZ cards are, unless you are playing one of the new MP's from FanZ or Awakening the game is no longer fun but that's my experience in play testing against FanZ,  but again you can't please everyone but before you say that someone else cards cards are OP or one sided based off reading the card you should test it with the cards that are out there and see how the card functions in actual play. 

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I admire the effort in making a set, but I think having 2 different games is bad for the game in the longrun. it fractures the playerbase in two smaller groups then one united big one. 

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On 3/21/2017 at 1:40 PM, Royaken said:

I'm going to assume you haven't actually looked at my Fragments & Memories set. You're not obligated to by any means, but you can't make statements like that without proper information. Terror wasn't made with PanZ style in mind, just it's appearance format. Fragments and Memories was a collaboration between myself and a few other normal PanZ players and edited to be playable with all sets currently made by PanZ and FanZ which you would know if you looked at them... Everyone is clearly entitled to their opinion and I always appreciate constructive criticism, but opinions with inaccurate information because you didn't read what I said is just criticism.

As I said, I did look at your cards (including memories) and that was the impression I got. I had all the necessary information. I understand that you don't like my opinion, but that's what it is. 

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2 hours ago, v3rse said:

As I said, I did look at your cards (including memories) and that was the impression I got. I had all the necessary information. I understand that you don't like my opinion, but that's what it is. 

I don't dislike the opinion. I dislike that it's baseless. If you haven't play tested any of the cards in Fragments then you don't have all the information. If you had tested them, and said that, my response would have been asking what I can do to fix that for you.

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3 hours ago, v3rse said:

As I said, I did look at your cards (including memories) and that was the impression I got. I had all the necessary information. I understand that you don't like my opinion, but that's what it is. 

 

After Gohan and Orange Bicycle Kick, I'm reluctant to take Fan Z seriously.

 

Especially Gohan.

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1 hour ago, Stryyder said:

I made one deck with FanZ in mind, Knowledge Gohan MPPV.  2 days later they errata'd Gohan lvl 4.  I haven't touched my cards since.

Gohan lv.4 needed to be erratas 

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2 hours ago, Royaken said:

I don't dislike the opinion. I dislike that it's baseless. If you haven't play tested any of the cards in Fragments then you don't have all the information. If you had tested them, and said that, my response would have been asking what I can do to fix that for you.

 

Some of that claim is errored. You don't have to play test every card to see which ones are broken. You only have to look at the card, compare it to similar cards that exist, assess how much it effects the meta how many possible answers are available and how likely they are to actually show at an event. For example, Orange Bicycle Kick in FanZ is broken. I haven't had to do one game with it to know that. It's incredibly powerful given what Orange already has and there is very little to stop what it can do and to defend against the onslaught of combos and triggers that come from it. Skilled players can look at new cards and assess them based on what they already know about the game. It isn't hard to do. You are correct on that he could have provided insight on what he thought specifically is broken and his ideas on fixing it but don't take away from a skilled player's ability to identify problem cards before they became a problem. The same goes for weak cards. No matter how much Panini plugged Android 16 during its preview stage in PanZ, players easily identified it as less than viable and it proved to be without knowing the whole set it debuted in and any play testing. It's possible and not difficult and you yourself probably do it all the time when building decks with new cards whether you realize it or not. 

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40 minutes ago, soviet prince said:

Gohan lv.4 needed to be erratas 

 

Premiere Gohan Level 4 definitely needed the errata given that he now has access to early game anger on his stack. It only applies to FanZ, so you still have the loop in PanZ. Now Blue Terror getting frozen sucks given we all know the problem card that lead to it and still nothing gets done to fix the problem card...

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17 minutes ago, Majin Goo said:

Some of that claim is errored. You don't have to play test every card to see which ones are broken. You only have to look at the card, compare it to similar cards that exist, assess how much it effects the meta how many possible answers are available and how likely they are to actually show at an event. For example, Orange Bicycle Kick in FanZ is broken. I haven't had to do one game with it to know that. It's incredibly powerful given what Orange already has and there is very little to stop what it can do and to defend against the onslaught of combos and triggers that come from it. Skilled players can look at new cards and assess them based on what they already know about the game. It isn't hard to do. You are correct on that he could have provided insight on what he thought specifically is broken and his ideas on fixing it but don't take away from a skilled player's ability to identify problem cards before they became a problem. The same goes for weak cards. No matter how much Panini plugged Android 16 during its preview stage in PanZ, players easily identified it as less than viable and it proved to be without knowing the whole set it debuted in and any play testing. It's possible and not difficult and you yourself probably do it all the time when building decks with new cards whether you realize it or not. 

I understand this. And yes, some cards are blatantly broken in some sets. But after extensively testing, editing and retesting each card in Fragments before releasing it, I know none of them are broken. And I'm not the only one that tested these before I decided to release them. Now if something is broken with a certain setup or combo, then the combo is broken or very nicely executed. I'm not saying no card ever made isn't broken, I'm simply saying none of the cards I made in Fragments are OP or easily turned a tide when coming out. Which anyone who has tested these cards would know.

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3 minutes ago, Majin Goo said:

Premiere Gohan Level 4 definitely needed the errata given that he now has access to early game anger on his stack. It only applies to FanZ, so you still have the loop in PanZ. Now Blue Terror getting frozen sucks given we all know the problem card that lead to it and still nothing gets done to fix the problem card...

I actually don't use Blue enough nor Blue Terror(believe it or not). What was the issue?

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2 minutes ago, Royaken said:

I actually don't use Blue enough nor Blue Terror(believe it or not). What was the issue?

 

Blue Terror into Unleashed or Kaio-Ken and the engine for Goku starts. Or if you're already high level, Goku 4 grab into Blue Terror into more combos and so forth. They defended the ban with Blue Rebuke's interaction, but given what I listed requires no setup but does for Blue Rebuke and isn't any more broken than Set 7 Gohan Level 2 grabbing it mid combat... it becomes obvious that it was banned to neuter Goku and Unleased some without getting rid of or changing either. 

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15 minutes ago, Majin Goo said:

Some of that claim is errored. You don't have to play test every card to see which ones are broken. You only have to look at the card, compare it to similar cards that exist, assess how much it effects the meta how many possible answers are available and how likely they are to actually show at an event.

Which is exactly what I  and another do.

To be really frank and I hope I'm not revealing too much, but most of Roy's designs that did need fixing(there weren't that many tbh. Balance is a big concern of his) need toning up, not down.

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Majin Goo adequately expressed what my response would have been to the idea that skilled players can't assess the quality of a card without play testing. Yes play testing is more accurate, but given that my first impression was negative and the fact that the format won't be supported regardless that doesn't make it worth the time to play test. Someone who knows what they're doing can quickly tell the quality of a card with reasonable accuracy. As MG pointed out it has happened many times when viewing official previews. I myself have correctly graded more than my share of cards in this way in the past. It is hardly baseless. It's based on experience. 

Besides, I was just disputing your original argument that my opinion had no meaning because I hadn't read your memories set. It speaks volumes that after that was proven false that you switched gears to point to play testing to try to invalidate my opinion. 

Someone asked for my opinion and I gave it. It was not directed at you (or even involve you at the start) or intended to be criticism. Just my opinion. I'd have thought you'd have been creating things long enough to know that not everyone is going to like what you created. I'm entitled to my opinion. 

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1 hour ago, v3rse said:

Majin Goo adequately expressed what my response would have been to the idea that skilled players can't assess the quality of a card without play testing. Yes play testing is more accurate, but given that my first impression was negative and the fact that the format won't be supported regardless that doesn't make it worth the time to play test. Someone who knows what they're doing can quickly tell the quality of a card with reasonable accuracy. As MG pointed out it has happened many times when viewing official previews. I myself have correctly graded more than my share of cards in this way in the past. It is hardly baseless. It's based on experience. 

Besides, I was just disputing your original argument that my opinion had no meaning because I hadn't read your memories set. It speaks volumes that after that was proven false that you switched gears to point to play testing to try to invalidate my opinion. 

Someone asked for my opinion and I gave it. It was not directed at you (or even involve you at the start) or intended to be criticism. Just my opinion. I'd have thought you'd have been creating things long enough to know that not everyone is going to like what you created. I'm entitled to my opinion. 

Look, we can go back and forth all day. And that's not what this topic was made for. I felt your claim was rude, so I felt the need to say something about it. Unprofessional of me. You could have given examples as to what's wrong instead of saying it seems like crap or crap. Not very polite. When a number of people test these cards, edit them, and then release them so they're balanced, your experience doesn't speak as loudly especially when your only backing is your experience.

It was 100% my fault in my 1st post not saying anything other then read. I knew if you HAD read them you didn't test them, but that wording is on me. I wasn't invalidating your opinion. Invalidating is saying your opinion doesn't matter, saying it's baseless is saying you haven't done actual research to support your claim. And that is actually a fact. You looked at something and formed the claim that it was broken without play testing.

Like I said, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I've received several critiques and suggested changes that I have been more than happy to oblige. You didn't give any reasons other than your experience just now. Just said my stuff wasn't good(used other words obviously). It's not your opinion that bothered me like I said before. It's that it was baseless.

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There are over 200 cards in your set, no? I create games and highly doubt that any amount of testing of that many cards since the announcement of the game's death has been sufficient. I also know panZ/fanZ devs do little to no play testing, which is why they print so many obvious problem cards.

 

I understand the amount of time and effort it takes to create something, and that it's close to your heart, but you shouldn't get so defensive over an opinion. The fact is, no matter what philosophy you have on this officially dead game, fanZ is the universally accepted continuation (for better or worse). Trying to force feed your version down people's throats just isn't going to work. (Which you'll argue against, but the defensive behavior and lashing out proves otherwise). 

 

Game balance is hard. And for this game especially, with the almost endless combinations of MPs, masteries, and styles, no set of cards should be released without at least 3 months of internal testing and at least 1 month of semi-open beta testing. (Honestly, it should be 6months total, but for a fan set, I get not taking it THAT seriously). Sadly, the fan/panz team barely tests for even a week (if at all. No way Orange bicycle kick should exist). If someone sees balancing issues with your cards, it's time to take a step back, remove your ego, and assess possible issues. Also, 200+ cards is way too much to try and balance in a game like this in a set with minimal testing. (Minimal as in, the game was announced dead in mid-late January. To create a set of 200+ cards and properly test them in just 2 months with the vast library of cards that currently exist AND achieve balance is just highly unlikely.) 

 

Creating is fine. Posting your creations is fine. Hell, asking people to take a look is fine. But you have to be realistic about your work and expectations of people trying it. As much as you may hate it, fanZ is the "official" continuation of this game. It has communal "credibility" due to the same devs working on it. You're a guy who makes fan cards abd posts them...I'm not belittling you, I'm just letting you know how the community at large perceives this situation. I make dbz cards too, but to expect everyone to move away from the currently progressing game to try out my fan set would just be unrealistic.

 

Also, you can't say someone who's played the game for literal years actively has a baseless opinion simply because they don't find your cards interesting or balanced. Obvious problem cards are obvious. He's entitled to not liking your creative direction, just like I don't like the creative direction of fan/panZ (it's always been bad design direction with really good mechanics to me).

 

That said, I wish you luck. Test more and try not to take criticism so harshly.

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4 hours ago, Emperor said:

There are over 200 cards in your set, no? I create games and highly doubt that any amount of testing of that many cards since the announcement of the game's death has been sufficient. I also know panZ/fanZ devs do little to no play testing, which is why they print so many obvious problem cards.

 

I understand the amount of time and effort it takes to create something, and that it's close to your heart, but you shouldn't get so defensive over an opinion. The fact is, no matter what philosophy you have on this officially dead game, fanZ is the universally accepted continuation (for better or worse). Trying to force feed your version down people's throats just isn't going to work. (Which you'll argue against, but the defensive behavior and lashing out proves otherwise). 

 

Game balance is hard. And for this game especially, with the almost endless combinations of MPs, masteries, and styles, no set of cards should be released without at least 3 months of internal testing and at least 1 month of semi-open beta testing. Sadly, the fan/panz team barely tests for even a week (if at all. No way Orange bicycle kick should exist). If someone sees balancing issues with your cards, it's time to take a step back, remove your ego, abd access possible issues. Also, 200+ cards is way too much to try and balance in a game like this in a set with minimal testing. (Minimal as in, the game was announced dead in mid-late January. To create a set of 200+ cards and properly test them in just 2 months with the vast library of cards that currently exist AND achieve balance is just highly unlikely.) 

 

Creating is fine. Posting your creations is fine. Hell, asking people to take a look is fine. But you have to be realistic about your work and expectations of people trying it. As much as you may hate it, fanZ is the "official" continuation of this game. It has communal "credibility" due to the same devs working on it. You're a guy who makes fan cards abd posts them...I'm not belittling you, I'm just letting you know how the community at large perceives this situation. I make dbz cards too, but to expect everyone to move away from the currently progressing game to try out my fan set would just be unrealistic.

 

Also, you can't say someone who's played the game for literal years actively has a baseless opinion simply because they don't find your cards interesting or balanced. Obvious problem cards are obvious. He's entitled to not liking your creative direction, just like I don't like the creative direction of fan/panZ (it's always been bad design direction with really good mechanics to me).

 

That said, I wish you luck. Test more and try not to take criticism so harshly.

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4 hours ago, Emperor said:

Trying to force feed your version down people's throats just isn't going to work. (Which you'll argue against, but the defensive behavior and lashing out proves otherwise).

To begin with, defending myself when I felt someones comment was rude and nonconstructive is not the same remotely as "forcing" my version down anyone's throat. Nor does THAT prove otherwise. This has been the only time I have reacted to ANY criticism this way, and STILL have never once said he HAD to play it. Just to clarify here for the remainder of my response, baseless means "without foundation in fact." Opinions can include facts or they can't. When they don't they are baseless. He gave no facts to support calling them 1 dimensional(boring), totally broken or that I didn't know what was good. His "experience" as a player so he just "knows" is not a fact.

5 hours ago, Emperor said:

Also, 200+ cards is way too much to try and balance in a game like this in a set with minimal testing. (Minimal as in, the game was announced dead in mid-late January. To create a set of 200+ cards and properly test them in just 2 months with the vast library of cards that currently exist AND achieve balance is just highly unlikely.)

Is this a possibility? Yes, yes it is. It is 100% possible that some of my cards need to be made stronger or weaker, but this can only be determined through further play testing. Testing still proves more fruitful then making assumptions based on how good of a player you are.

5 hours ago, Emperor said:

If someone sees balancing issues with your cards, it's time to take a step back, remove your ego, and access possible issues.

This is what confuses me. I can go back to other posts I have made, take a photo of PM's or whatever I need to get it it across that it wasn't the "balancing issues" he had with my cards that I have an issue with. It was that his opinion was baseless and rude. Many people have already replied or messaged me about issues with my cards but were more along the lines of "Bulma says to draw a card and if it is a type of card, do X. To remove cheating, shouldn't you have to reveal the card?" and I then fixed the issue. When @Artificial Human and @abstraktpb were testing my cards, they frequently came to me with powers and effects that needed to be made stronger or weaker and I changed them accordingly. This I have said many times already. And I still invite any ACTUAL critiques to my cards. Something I can work with.

5 hours ago, Emperor said:

As much as you may hate it, fanZ is the "official" continuation of this game. It has communal "credibility" due to the same devs working on it. You're a guy who makes fan cards and posts them...I'm not belittling you, I'm just letting you know how the community at large perceives this situation. I make dbz cards too, but to expect everyone to move away from the currently progressing game to try out my fan set would just be unrealistic.

I don't hate it and never said I did. And I've also said before on more than one occasion I don't expect everyone to look at, like or even care about my cards.

5 hours ago, Emperor said:

Also, you can't say someone who's played the game for literal years actively has a baseless opinion simply because they don't find your cards interesting or balanced. Obvious problem cards are obvious. He's entitled to not liking your creative direction, just like I don't like the creative direction of fan/panZ (it's always been bad design direction with really good mechanics to me).

Again, baseless means "without foundation in fact" and that statement is not inaccurate as much as anyone on here may dislike it. "I've played the game for years so I KNOW X card is broken even if you and a number of other people tested it before release" isn't a fact, it's an assumption. "I've played the game for years so I KNOW X card is broken BECAUSE it does Y and Z at the same time and shouldn't. That's too much" provides USEFUL information, constructive criticism, and fact. If someone says "you sound stupid" or "your an idiot" or "your work sucks" etc, without any reasoning behind it or suggestions on how to fix the problem they see, it's rude and you're allowed to defend yourself and request for them to bring forth evidence. In case anyone here is wondering evidence means "the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid." As said before, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I've said it, he's said it, you've said it, everyone has said it. And I'll say for the, i don't know, 4th time? I didn't dislike his opinion, I disliked that it was baseless.

In the end, I can wholeheartedly admit I could've reacted better. I was allowed to be defensive, but should I have instead asked for examples? Yes I should have. Do I regret not reacting that way? Sure. But what's done is done unfortunately. I apologize to everyone on this thread for this discussion getting out of hand. This situation got out of hand because of how I reacted. That being said, take a look at my other topics closely and my responses before assuming I simply don't take suggestions or critiques well instead of just using this instance as a reference.

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