LordVader

Attack Table Adjustment?

29 posts in this topic

With personalities growing stronger with each new set release, will the attack table ever get an adjustment? It seems once you start hitting a certain point (I.e. a power level of 10 million) there should be a G level imo. I'd love to hear everyone else's thoughts on this!

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Considering the cards I've been working on, I thought about doing just that. Problem is, since everyone sees FanZ as the closest thing to "official" that there is, FanZ would have to be the ones to make the new attack table. And they messed that up from the start... like bad. There's also the Fusion Format table which actually works really nice. Everyone could agree to use that, but again most people will probably look to FanZ for this "decision."

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2 minutes ago, sh0ryu_repp4 said:

The Attack Table doesn't need adjustment. Also, with Panini gone, FanZ IS official.

They're the closest thing TOO official because they are a majority of the PanZ development team.

Official:
1. appointed or authorized to act in a designated capacity
2. of or relating to an office or position of duty, trust, or authority
3. a person appointed or elected to an office or charged with certain duties

And that's to name a few. None of the definitions of "official" fit what FanZ is, but they're name does. They no longer own any rights to the game or sales. With selling FanZ cards, they're not selling dbz, they're selling their print and labor with a disclaimer. That is quite literally not official. That is a fact. Even their name, FanZ, says it all. They are WIDELY accepted as such because of what I mentioned at the top. but no matter how many people say it, FanZ is NOT official and never will be until they are allowed to use copyright information again with permission from the other companies. That's like saying people on Etsy who have been selling custom dbz merchandise for YEARS are official dbz merchants when they're not.

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let me put it this way guys...

If i were to make up a DBZ card with Batman on it it would be just as "official" as Roy's or any of the hundreds upon HUNDREDS of fan, made up cards made up here since this forum started.

The difference is NOBODY is playing with those cards in a tournament in any capacity. They are with FanZ tho. THAT is the difference. Whether you LIKE FanZ or not it is what we have, what we can actually, feasibly play with.

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Just now, sh0ryu_repp4 said:

The difference is NOBODY is playing with those cards in a tournament in any capacity. They are with FanZ tho. THAT is the difference. Whether you LIKE FanZ or not it is what we have, what we can actually, feasibly play with.

We play locals with my fan made cards.  So mine are official by your standards?

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2 minutes ago, sh0ryu_repp4 said:

let me put it this way guys...

If i were to make up a DBZ card with Batman on it it would be just as "official" as Roy's or any of the hundreds upon HUNDREDS of fan, made up cards made up here since this forum started.

The difference is NOBODY is playing with those cards in a tournament in any capacity. They are with FanZ tho. THAT is the difference. Whether you LIKE FanZ or not it is what we have, what we can actually, feasibly play with.

This is also not true. First off, my cards are official on NO scale, and I have never claimed them to be. If you made a dbz card with batman, well then that would be stupid and not used by anyone at all since it's batman on a dbz card.

Second, there are a number of people trying to keep this game going NOT just FanZ and these other people host their own events. I have been spoken too by one of these groups on Deviantart asking my permission to use MY cards in their event. I don't know how they're supposed to do that unless they make their own proxies(since I'm not making them yet), but I said sure. Even a member on this site is holding minor events in AZ. The amount of people isn't that big, but people still go AND use cards listed in Fusion format. One of the guys that orginizes these events is my friend, works on the Fusion format rules and is trying to incorporate my cards after asking. Now I don't expect anything to come of it, but that's not the point.

And lastly, I do not dislike FanZ by any means. But that's still just not true. As long as an event allows fan made cards(FanZ doesn't, but like I said, they're not the only ones holding events) then we have unlimited cards as long as said cards are listed as playable. You also have people who don't want to play FanZ and with their large group of friends have decided to play other custom cards because FACT that is all FanZ is now. Custom fan made cards. They just have a bigger rep because of what they WERE not ARE. FanZ is not official. Hosting an event doesn't make you official. That's also why in FanZ's frozen list they state about their list "They are recommended in any unofficial FanZ events as well, but ultimately up to the discretion of the tournament organizer."

1 minute ago, ChangelingBard said:

We play locals with my fan made cards.  So mine are official by your standards?

-high five- LIVE THE DREAM!

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2 hours ago, sh0ryu_repp4 said:

let me put it this way guys...

If i were to make up a DBZ card with Batman on it it would be just as "official" as Roy's or any of the hundreds upon HUNDREDS of fan, made up cards made up here since this forum started.

The difference is NOBODY is playing with those cards in a tournament in any capacity. They are with FanZ tho. THAT is the difference. Whether you LIKE FanZ or not it is what we have, what we can actually, feasibly play with.

Pretty sure ARG doesn't allow Fan Z. Only Grand Kai.

Frankly, I couldn't care less which is the 'OHFISSULEZ' Dragon Ball continuation/reboot/whatever. Whichever one is the most enjoyable to play is the one I'll be playing personally. That also goes backwards for Z vs GT vs Re-Z(LOL) vs PanZ too.

I've had problems with Panini's Development Group since H&V, they only ever made two good sets, Perfection and Vengeance. I have no loyalty to them. So anyone or thing that can satisfy the itch, I'll gravitate there.
 

----

 

As for the topic at hand, I like how PanZ did the AT. I like it not moving, older things not getting strictly weaker, only comparatively so. Things that are strong hit 'You're in F. You're strong enough.'. Especially in retrospect, I dislike Score's updated AT every other set.

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19 minutes ago, Artificial Human said:

As for the topic at hand, I like how PanZ did the AT. I like it not moving, older things not getting strictly weaker, only comparatively so. Things that are strong hit 'You're in F. You're strong enough.'. Especially in retrospect, I dislike Score's updated AT every other set.

I can agree to that. Makes sense.

I dont like that scores kept changing either. I just dont think they had enough power level range on panz table. But yeah yiur point is a good one.

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Honestly I feel the Fusion format AT table balances the power ratings really well and with the increasing power ranges that FanZ and other card makers are headed because of the scaling of characters from the show, also the Fusion AT would lower the brackets of the newer MP's from F to D which would lower the amount of damage from 6 to 4 which would also help lower the damage when being at 0. The Fusion AT table also puts most MP's in B and C bracket with how the scaling is. It balances great across all versions of this card game whether its Retro, Fusion, PanZ/FanZ. The Fusion AT table is how score SHOULD have made the AT especially when they added GT that would have balanced the game so much more but that's a topic for another day.

 

58d1b5fc24983_ATtable.PNG.692ec44fffb19c3aa3a5c9d23188995a.PNG

 

2 hours ago, Artificial Human said:

As for the topic at hand, I like how PanZ did the AT. I like it not moving, older things not getting strictly weaker, only comparatively so. Things that are strong hit 'You're in F. You're strong enough.'. Especially in retrospect, I dislike Score's updated AT every other set.

 

1 hour ago, Royaken said:

I can agree to that. Makes sense.

I dont like that scores kept changing either. I just dont think they had enough power level range on panz table. But yeah your point is a good one.

 

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like I said in another thread 2 different games hurts the  overall games future, I see the offical as the tcg game that the majority of the players play. I know it's not the literal definition of the word but when is english ever straight forward

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I hadn't thought about older personalities getting weaker..I suppose I wouldn't like a change like that either. Nappa is too much fun to be hurt like that.

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11 minutes ago, Edison Carasio said:

I don't know if official is the best word.  I'd say "designated successor".

Sure the nomenclature isn't EXACT but for all intents and purposes, it is.

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8 minutes ago, LeluGhost said:

This engine is totally up for grabs for a completely original title.

I hope so.

 

That being said, the community at large is behind fanz. Since I want to play against those people that is what I will be playing. The other stuff might be fun to mess around with from time to time, but it will never see major tournaments. 

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This comes up every so often, and honestly so far no. I do not believe that there is any actual need for a new AT table.

Level 1 and 2 personalities are really the only ones with any major growth in their bracketing. Even then, God Goku and Golden Frieza already set a precedent for these higher bracketing on lower personality levels without breaking the game. Level 3 and 4 personalities are pretty consistent from sets 1-7 (Go ahead, compare set 1 Goku level 4 to his set 7, or Trunks level 4. You'll be surprised to find that set 4 actually had the strongest bracketing for most characters, despite generally mediocre abilities). Fan Z only has one level that doesn't follow any preset bracketing. 

It's all in the bracket distribution. Your power level could be 16 million or 1.5 million. Unless you have a card that requires you to specifically have a higher power level then your opponent, they are the same thing, and are pretty consistent about dropping out of F, regardless of how high that number is. 

 

I've already done the work to make the spread sheet, so here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cxlWsZHg3UPuCPUJ-f4PXtRdgGQ0183IZn_Z1oAttFo/edit?usp=sharing

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1 hour ago, Amanax said:

This comes up every so often, and honestly so far no. I do not believe that there is any actual need for a new AT table.

Level 1 and 2 personalities are really the only ones with any major growth in their bracketing. Even then, God Goku and Golden Frieza already set a precedent for these higher bracketing on lower personality levels without breaking the game. Level 3 and 4 personalities are pretty consistent from sets 1-7 (Go ahead, compare set 1 Goku level 4 to his set 7, or Trunks level 4. You'll be surprised to find that set 4 actually had the strongest bracketing for most characters, despite generally mediocre abilities). Fan Z only has one level that doesn't follow any preset bracketing. 

It's all in the bracket distribution. Your power level could be 16 million or 1.5 million. Unless you have a card that requires you to specifically have a higher power level then your opponent, they are the same thing, and are pretty consistent about dropping out of F, regardless of how high that number is. 

 

I've already done the work to make the spread sheet, so here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cxlWsZHg3UPuCPUJ-f4PXtRdgGQ0183IZn_Z1oAttFo/edit?usp=sharing

 

I came here to say all of that and you beat me to it. PanZ developers made it clear early on that their goal was to use bracket placement as a tool for balancing characters and ensuring that characters aren't put out by one AT based attack. If we were to do new AT's periodically in PanZ/FanZ, everytime the AT would change, stronger characters would still do decent damage while weaker ones would take more and as you upgrade the AT more and more, more characters would be weakened and made less viable due to them taking high levels of AT damage from newer characters from the start of each match. So in essence, a new AT would do little to bring balance and runs the high risk of phasing out characters like Nappa, Raditz, Krillin, Yamcha etc, as they eventually get permanently pushed into A and maybe B brackets. Brackets affect how much damage you take not just how much you deal and people forget this when they start talking about increasing the bracket to accommodate new higher power levels. The new characters will still hit E and F bracket while older characters start to take more and more damage as new characters stacks are released and new AT's are made.

Now, for the person that says, "well we'll just balance it by limiting brackets", we're already doing that. As long as bracket distribution remains in the design process characters that are supposed to hit hard will but without completely wrecking older characters from turn 1. 

For the cards that judge effects based on the difference between power levels, I doubt we'll get too many more of those. They honestly shouldn't have existed to the extent that they did and going forward for similar effects it should be an "if, then" situation where an effect is based on the brackets. For example, if you're in a higher bracket than do this, otherwise it doesn't get the additional effect. This puts the focus on the player more where they fall in brackets instead of worrying about the actual number, simplifying the process and helping create a mechanic that requires you to often have dealt damage to your opponent vs. getting a free effect because you're 1,000 points above them which in reality is a frivolous amount in DBZ.

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18 hours ago, v3rse said:

I hope so.

 

That being said, the community at large is behind fanz. Since I want to play against those people that is what I will be playing. The other stuff might be fun to mess around with from time to time, but it will never see major tournaments. 

 

From my perspective the "community at large" abandoned this game at about the same time that Panini did. 

 

Look, its great that people are designing their own sets and trying to keep this game going, if only for their local scene.  Lets be honest though, there is no "official" version of this game anymore.  Spreading custom sets online is great for the handful of local groups that get together and want to keep the game fresh, but none of these are "new standards" as the game no longer exists outside of small local communities.  For this reason, Roy's work does nothing to hurt the game at large as some are complaining may happen, as the game is already dead on this scale (lets not kid ourselves, these "kai" events are little more than this game's death throes).

 

FWIW, Roy's work is great.  His design is not heavy-handed and his style work is tame.  AND his set is playtested at at least some level.  You can tell this guy has passion for what he is doing with this game.  Meanwhile, you have the ExPaniDevs trying to out-do each other at every turn and creating cards like Orange Bicycle kick and essentially expect the player base to play test their cards (keep in mind that these are the same people that continue to ignore major valid criticisms about this game in favor of their own visions).

 

The game is dead guys.  Play with your local groups and come up with your own new cards to keep things fresh; if this works well for you post your ideas online for others to try, like Roy.

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1 hour ago, The Bear said:

 

From my perspective the "community at large" abandoned this game at about the same time that Panini did. 

 

Look, its great that people are designing their own sets and trying to keep this game going, if only for their local scene.  Lets be honest though, there is no "official" version of this game anymore.  Spreading custom sets online is great for the handful of local groups that get together and want to keep the game fresh, but none of these are "new standards" as the game no longer exists outside of small local communities.  For this reason, Roy's work does nothing to hurt the game at large as some are complaining may happen, as the game is already dead on this scale (lets not kid ourselves, these "kai" events are little more than this game's death throes).

 

FWIW, Roy's work is great.  His design is not heavy-handed and his style work is tame.  AND his set is playtested at at least some level.  You can tell this guy has passion for what he is doing with this game.  Meanwhile, you have the ExPaniDevs trying to out-do each other at every turn and creating cards like Orange Bicycle kick and essentially expect the player base to play test their cards (keep in mind that these are the same people that continue to ignore major valid criticisms about this game in favor of their own visions).

 

The game is dead guys.  Play with your local groups and come up with your own new cards to keep things fresh; if this works well for you post your ideas online for others to try, like Roy.

The game is definitely dead. FanZ is currently riddled with too many balance issues for this to be an enjoyable game. Future Gohan is broken, and if they got rid of him, then Unleashed Drawku would be broken. If they got rid of Unleashed and Drawku, then we have MPPV decks that win in 2-3 turns. Get rid of that, and Awakening Cell with 33 blocks takes over the meta. Get rid of that and we have infinitelife Hercule decks.

Even when the game was going set 7 was just Two Turn Orange Roshi, Three Turn Red Vegeta, and Blue Drawku. Also, Awakening Gohan makes ally decks pretty much unplayble outside of Blue Tag Team.

At least with Score Z you could just agree to ban SWK and then have some fun. Pan/FanZ is like Score Z without nerfs to Roshi, PTT, or Tapkar. No thanks.

Oh yeah, let's not even mention how Black has no playable masteries thanks to their inability to properly nerf and unfreeze Devious.

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Funny how I said how OP Future Gohan was and I kept getting told I didn't know I was talking about, and now here we are.

I am coining this phenomenon "The Edison Syndrome" lol

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I've found Future Gohan to be manageable while playing against him. He does take some fancy footwork to handle and is extremely broken but could easily be fixed by making his level one an, on "HIT: " effect. Honestly, most of the problems with FanZ would be manageable if you made that change along with a nerf to Orange Bicycle Kick and Orange Retribution Mastery, and by adding a solid Black Mastery which if they follow previous trends won't come until their "set 10" release. 

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the game is not dead until everyone quits playing it, the kai events are a good start to keeping it alive.  having 3 different games though hurt the chances of it staying alive though for example vegeta and goku are powerful but there not strong enough individually to beat gohan buu but when combined becoming vegeto they can beat gohan buu even if the total power did not increase but just joined together rather then split

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