v3rse

The Saiyan Problem

55 posts in this topic

So I was bored and thought I'd start a discussion topic. The discussion at hand: Saiyan Masteries

Saiyan is in a tight spot right now with the current mastery selection. Unfortunately all the saiyan masteries basically do a variation of the same thing: advancing levels. And not much else. Empowered is the only one of the 3 that advances quickly enough for this to be enough of an advantage for survival victory. In exchange it sacrifices mppv. Rampaging and Dynamic can technically win by mppv, but neither advances quickly enough to make this a reliable strategy. Prior to the unfreezing of the set 1 masteries Rampaging had a decent shot at this, but it is now much less reliable (for reasons I will address later). Outside of a few niche level 2 builds dynamic mastery is outclassed in every way by empowered mastery, and mppv has basically always been out of the question for this mastery. That means that the only mastery worth playing right now is empowered mastery (in 95% of saiyan decks). And that's no fun for anybody.

 

The cause is clear: Dynamic and Rampaging were designed too similarly to empowered and to each other from the outset. As well as being generally underwhelming in a vacuum as well. Dynamic could be good with a clear high powered lv 2 saiyan MP to build around, but that simply doesn't exist right now. The closest thing is probably awakening Gohan or Trunks. And if you want to camp gohan 2 then you're better off just playing vengeance lv 1 to advance instead since dynamic doesn't even give any protection against deleveling. At least vengeance 1 can get you back up quick and gives you some utility in the form of allies. Which basically means gohan 2 is better in every style other than saiyan. Trunks can camp his awakening 2 for physical protection and a ton of crits from named cards, but this is disruptable with deleveling (though there is some protection available). Ball beats ensures you make good use of the many crits, but that leaves the deck with very little endurance. It's a solid deck, but definitely tier 2. Goku is clearly best in empowered. Vegeta can't really even play saiyan because his only good stack relies on freestyle attacks which clashes with the mastery relying on styled attacks making him better in other styles (for the most part). His villain stack synergizes well with the saiyan masteries, but is largely outmoded at this point and even then probably still prefers empowered. His set 4 stack can function in Saiyan, but was weak to start and has only gotten weaker. And again probably prefers empowered to make use of his good upper levels faster. Broly most likely prefers empowered as well. You could make a case for dynamic unleashed builds which is fair, but I personally prefer empowered for him as well. Broly made a mean rampaging dual victory deck, but that doesn't work anymore because protective mastery is unfrozen.

 

Can it be fixed? 

Since empowered is the default mastery it would seem like an easy fix to just refreeze it, right? Wrong. Because that would just leave us with only 1 mastery to play saiyan with (which is even worse than the current situation). The problem is protective mastery. Rampaging simply cannot compete against protective mastery. Protective basically shuts down everything that rampaging tries to do for free. It negates the lower anger threshold as well as making it harder to get hits through for anger gain (and potentially lowers anger at the same time). It is a hard counter to rampaging, and it is commonly played. When protective was frozen rampaging started to see success for the first time despite it being a relatively weak mastery overall. And it still can win against other decks, but there is just no point in ever playing rampaging at a large tournament when just 1 match up against a commonly played mastery can ruin your whole day. Which means if Empowered is frozen, only dynamic is viable. Unless Protective mastery is frozen as well. Which at that point you might as well refreeze the rest of the set 1 masteries as well (which does not appear to be what the fanbase wants).

 

So I personally feel saiyan is pretty much a 1 trick pony right now. In desperate need of a mastery that does something different. Like we should have gotten several sets ago. What are your thoughts? New saiyan mastery ideas welcome. I will probably share some of my own if the thread takes that direction.

 

 

Royaken likes this

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I think it would be cool to create a saiyan mastery that has a passive of gaining anger as an immediate effect per attack, but the actual power could be either lowering anger 2 levels ( or 3) or destroying the top card (or 2) of the life deck to have all of your attacks deal + 3 stages. I like the anger theme in saiyan and think a little self damage to boost attack would be a nice theme for saiyan -the more injured they get the more fierce they become. Personally I lean toward the anger reduction.

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If I were to redo the game at set 1, I would remove Saiyan and Black style and make namekian the new "black" style and go from there. Saiyan simply didn't work. Black didn't have any depth (just cock block anything and make unique/creative stuff unplayable).

Saiyan and Namekian could later show up as "gimmick" styles where they have overpowered masteries and very bland underpowered cards. They would just have a unique goofy way of playing, but they would be similar to what you are describing.

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I always thought the Saiyan Tragic Mastery from the OCG was good and not too meta-breaking if ported to PanZ: (You can't win by MPPV.) Your MP starts the game at level 2. Your Styled attacks do +2 power stages of damage and gain "HIT: Rejuvenate the bottom card of your discard pile."

Another theme that I wanted to see was ignoring or punishing your opponent for using Endurance. Something like:

Saiyan Onslaught Mastery:

(You can't win by MPPV). Once per combat, you may destroy the top 2 cards of your Life Deck to change the HIT effect of an attack played from your hand into an immediate effect. Whenever your opponent would use Endurance against one of your attacks, you may gain anger equal to that Endurance amount. Whenever your opponent Rejuvenates a card, raise your anger by 1.

You could probably drop the last sentence to give MPPV back.

LordVader likes this

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31 minutes ago, cytorak said:

I always thought the Saiyan Tragic Mastery from the OCG was good and not too meta-breaking if ported to PanZ: (You can't win by MPPV.) Your MP starts the game at level 2. Your Styled attacks do +2 power stages of damage and gain "HIT: Rejuvenate the bottom card of your discard pile."

Another theme that I wanted to see was ignoring or punishing your opponent for using Endurance. Something like:

Saiyan Onslaught Mastery:

(You can't win by MPPV). Once per combat, you may destroy the top 2 cards of your Life Deck to change the HIT effect of an attack played from your hand into an immediate effect. Whenever your opponent would use Endurance against one of your attacks, you may gain anger equal to that Endurance amount. Whenever your opponent Rejuvenates a card, raise your anger by 1.

You could probably drop the last sentence to give MPPV back.

Okay that onslaught mastery is bitchin. I really like that. Not a fan of the first one though, seems too namekian. IMO saiyan should be a beat down barbaric style.

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That onslaught mastery is straight up overpowered. "You may gain anger equal to the endurance amount" is broken. Even "whenever your opponent uses endurance, raise your anger 1 level" is broken

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36 minutes ago, Jaith1 said:

That onslaught mastery is straight up overpowered. "You may gain anger equal to the endurance amount" is broken. Even "whenever your opponent uses endurance, raise your anger 1 level" is broken

Make it a once per turn deal (same as the first part)  but keep everything else the same. I think that would be better

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4 minutes ago, LordVader said:

Make it a once per turn deal (same as the first part)  but keep everything else the same. I think that would be better

It's easier to just make the mastery overpowered (card advantage) but give Saiyan less utility and weaker cards to work with. When I think Saiyan I think full retard.

"when entering combat destroy the top card of your life deck, if that was a styled attack place it in your hand

whenever you destroy a styled card from one of your effects, raise your anger 1 level"

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3 hours ago, Jaith1 said:

It's easier to just make the mastery overpowered (card advantage) but give Saiyan less utility and weaker cards to work with. When I think Saiyan I think full retard.

"when entering combat destroy the top card of your life deck, if that was a styled attack place it in your hand

whenever you destroy a styled card from one of your effects, raise your anger 1 level"

Meh, that kind of utility belongs in the other stlyles- I.e. blue and black? We need an all out I'm gonna wreck you style. I don't feel the other styles fit that.

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10 hours ago, ChangelingBard said:

Saiyan was designed bad the whole game and no mastery will ever redeem it without breaking the style. 

Agreed. the whole thing would need to be re worked from the ground up.

Goo and I talked about this awhile ago but I think just ditching Namekian and Saiyan as styles entirely is the way to go.

LeluGhost likes this

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On 3/24/2017 at 9:00 AM, sh0ryu_repp4 said:

Agreed. the whole thing would need to be re worked from the ground up.

Goo and I talked about this awhile ago but I think just ditching Namekian and Saiyan as styles entirely is the way to go.

 
 
 

I've always thought the game should have just been 4 or 5 styles plus freestyle cards with no style restricted by race. They can use a few race specific cards just like they did with allegiance but having styles that are race specific creates a limited design space as it has done with Namekian and Saiyan. It forces you to make those characters with their race specific styles in mind or not and risk not having any real synergy with them. Saiyan doesn't see it as bad since Saiyan stacks are everywhere but Namekian MP's are scarce and this has led them to make incredibly versatile and powerful Mastery cards to accommodate the limited amount of MP's while somewhat trapping the MP's in their style. 

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Make Namekian the Majin Style.

Boom.

 

Opens it right up.

 

Now covers all Namekians, who were originally called Demons, and the actual Majins. Just make the ball interaction namekian heritage only.

 

This is an idea ive been tossing around for a while.

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43 minutes ago, Artificial Human said:

Make Namekian the Majin Style.

Boom.

 

Opens it right up.

 

Now covers all Namekians, who were originally called Demons, and the actual Majins. Just make the ball interaction namekian heritage only.

 

This is an idea ive been tossing around for a while.

Majin Goo approves of a Majin style. 

sh0ryu_repp4 likes this

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1 hour ago, Artificial Human said:

Make Namekian the Majin Style.

Boom.

 

Opens it right up.

 

Now covers all Namekians, who were originally called Demons, and the actual Majins. Just make the ball interaction namekian heritage only.

 

This is an idea ive been tossing around for a while.

As a reboot this would be a great idea

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On 25/03/2017 at 1:00 AM, sh0ryu_repp4 said:

Agreed. the whole thing would need to be re worked from the ground up.

Goo and I talked about this awhile ago but I think just ditching Namekian and Saiyan as styles entirely is the way to go.

I've been thinking about things related to the topic at hand and I've pretty much came to the same conclusion. As much as I love Saiyan and my mate loves Namekian, I don't think they work. Like, at all.

Saiyan, thematically atleast, treads on Red's toes because it's essentially an archetype of the same darn thing. I was discussing this with said mate, the core 4 styles represent different aspects of a fighter. Berserker, Collected, Learner and Deceiver. Saiyan is... another Berserker. Namekian is... flavorful?

Pan Z Red really strays away from what makes Red Red, the beats anger style it started as, just to give Saiyan some space, turning Red into more of a combo based style. Can't say it worked terribly well, Red turned out very well eventually and Saiyan is on the floor in agony unless specific MP's pilot it, even then, it's not Saiyan bringing anything to the table.

Namekian kinda treads on toes too. It's aggressive forms have more in common with Red and Saiyan, tons of card advantage, it's defensive forms have more in common with Blue and Black, it's darn good at defense and can mill. it's a tempo deck for a reason, it's essentially the multi coloured as a style. When you do what I suggested, make it Majin, Namekian looses a ton once it doesn't have Dragon Balls as a design space if you don't want to continuously tread on Red and Saiyan or rely on Rejuvenation to an obnoxious degree.

I just can't help but feel the game would be better in terms of colour identity and being able to do archetypes without Namekian and Saiyan.

LeluGhost and sh0ryu_repp4 like this

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As bad as rampaging mastery is, I think the discard aspect was incredibly underutilized. Make a card that when discarded you can add 2 styled cards to your hand from the discard pile. Make discard effects that actually DO something instead measly 1-3 stage vanilla attacks. 

On that point, the discard attack should deal life, or the player chooses either or. There are cards that have far more utility while swinging for at least five life, easily. There's nothing broken about a vanilla 6 life attack. It's just raw power that's likely to be blocked anyway.

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1 hour ago, v3rse said:

I'd be on board with the next official reboot of the game not having Saiyan or namekian as styles. Instead just print Saiyan/Namekian heritage only cards. For flavor and diversity. 

That's what I've always thought should happen. Have 4 distinct styles while focusing on Archetypes, using freestyle as a way to make minor gap adjustments. 

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Getting rid of Namekian and Saiyan styles seems like the right way to go.  Artificial is right, they don't really have their own mechanical flavor.

Namekian controls anger and it's own deck, as well as mill.  It's like the weird child of Blue and Black.

Saiyan is combat focused and anger focused.  It's just Red.

A new reboot would also need to keep its color pie more aligned.  Don't break or expand the color pie in the first 3 sets.  Red drill theme was useless the ENTIRE game.

Artificial Human likes this

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3 hours ago, Justin McBride said:

Saiyan Rampaging Trunks is a fantastic deck.

Saiyan is fine and amazing at what it does.

You mean Broly is fine? lol

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But I agree with what everyone has said. Make a few cards saiyan or namekian only for flavor.

PanZ had a HUGE problem with color identity from the start (shoehorning everything into every style) and something like this would really help fix that problem.

Artificial Human and LeluGhost like this

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