v3rse

The Saiyan Problem

55 posts in this topic

21 hours ago, Justin McBride said:

Saiyan Rampaging Trunks is a fantastic deck.

Saiyan is fine and amazing at what it does.

I don't think anyone is arguing that Saiyan isn't strong right now. It is. I argued that there's very little variation because empowered mastery is almost always the best choice. Rampaging trunks is one of the exceptions, but it's not that competitive against the top tier decks. There are faster mppv decks, and Rampaging has a huge disadvantage against protective. Protective is admittedly not as popular as it once was, but there are still plenty out there. And it only takes 1 bad match up to ruin your tournament chances.

 

Shoryu- panz did not have a color identity problem at first. It was fairly well defined in set 1. That issue developed over time. I still don't think it's horrendous now, but there is definitely room for improvement in the future. 

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21 minutes ago, v3rse said:

Shoryu- panz did not have a color identity problem at first. It was fairly well defined in set 1. That issue developed over time. I still don't think it's horrendous now, but there is definitely room for improvement in the future. 

+1

Was going to mention this.  I believe Panini's problem with certain themes is that they wanted to give each style a different way to do the same thing but did it poorly.  The game really needs more costs associated with actions.  Its strange, since they nailed this idea with power stages and energy attacks.  I just wonder what the original devs idea was at the start when they were like "lets make energy attacks cost stages but make everything else in the game essentially lacking a cost."  It literally doesnt make sense.

 

 

 

 

LeluGhost likes this

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I don't think costs could work without ruining the game.

It'll probably start resembling Re-Z or need another barometer on cards or need GT esc PUR/Cost/Damage to balance it out.

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Costs could work, but the entire game needs to be revamped in order for it to work.  If everything had a powerstage cost, power stage damage would become too swingy and would need to be removed. 

The combat system would also be in question since the cards played per turn would significantly reduced.  

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1 hour ago, LeluGhost said:

Costs could work, but the entire game needs to be revamped in order for it to work.  If everything had a powerstage cost, power stage damage would become too swingy and would need to be removed. 

The combat system would also be in question since the cards played per turn would significantly reduced.  

I think we're veering on 'The entire game is rotten. Let's mod UFS or make something inspired by Z instead.' when you go that far tbh.

Not that I don't think the game needs tuning up for it's own balance and longevity, it's just it stops resembling itself at a certain point. I feel we're reaching that.

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55 minutes ago, Artificial Human said:

I think we're veering on 'The entire game is rotten. Let's mod UFS or make something inspired by Z instead.' when you go that far tbh.

Not that I don't think the game needs tuning up for it's own balance and longevity, it's just it stops resembling itself at a certain point. I feel we're reaching that.

We are reaching that, and possibly for the better.  We've looked at a ton of issues and identified a few that are just core to the game.  I love the hell out of Z, but after seeing so many iterations, I'm confident that the repeated problems are inherent.

Not that it couldn't be highly changed and still be the core game, but much of the core itself will be altered if it were to be rebooted as a new IP. 

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2 hours ago, LeluGhost said:

We are reaching that, and possibly for the better.  We've looked at a ton of issues and identified a few that are just core to the game.  I love the hell out of Z, but after seeing so many iterations, I'm confident that the repeated problems are inherent.

Not that it couldn't be highly changed and still be the core game, but much of the core itself will be altered if it were to be rebooted as a new IP. 

'Much of the core' also exists in UFS, which honestly on a surface level feels exactly like what we're describing. No power stages, costs to play cards, ect.

Maybe the next Z should scrap Jim Ward's game and try to make a simplified UFS with elements of Z? UFS isn't a bad game by any stretch, but it could stand to be made to flow better.

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4 hours ago, Artificial Human said:

'Much of the core' also exists in UFS, which honestly on a surface level feels exactly like what we're describing. No power stages, costs to play cards, ect.

Maybe the next Z should scrap Jim Ward's game and try to make a simplified UFS with elements of Z? UFS isn't a bad game by any stretch, but it could stand to be made to flow better.

Cards in UFS have costs. Every card needs a control check, and once played and added to the card pool add to the progressive difficulty. Every card has a cost.

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11 hours ago, Artificial Human said:

'Much of the core' also exists in UFS, which honestly on a surface level feels exactly like what we're describing. No power stages, costs to play cards, ect.

Maybe the next Z should scrap Jim Ward's game and try to make a simplified UFS with elements of Z? UFS isn't a bad game by any stretch, but it could stand to be made to flow better.

I'll have to look into UFS, I have no idea what it is.  

If it can improve upon the downfalls of DBZ's current design, then I'm all for it.

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7 hours ago, LeluGhost said:

I'll have to look into UFS, I have no idea what it is.  

If it can improve upon the downfalls of DBZ's current design, then I'm all for it.

UFS is a strange beast in my opinion. I think it does a hell of a lot right where DBZ fails, but it doesn't feel as good to play. Not as organic.

Kinda like Magic vs The Spoils. Spoils was arguably a better game, but Magic played better.

Except UFS is still alive...

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On 4/25/2017 at 1:08 AM, Artificial Human said:

'Much of the core' also exists in UFS, which honestly on a surface level feels exactly like what we're describing. No power stages, costs to play cards, ect.

Maybe the next Z should scrap Jim Ward's game and try to make a simplified UFS with elements of Z? UFS isn't a bad game by any stretch, but it could stand to be made to flow better.

I don't think you have actually played UFS sir.  If one does not like dice rolls one cannot possibly like UFS's "check" system.  

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6 hours ago, ChangelingBard said:

I don't think you have actually played UFS sir.  If one does not like dice rolls one cannot possibly like UFS's "check" system.  

I have. I own the Sophitia / Seigfried battle Box, a Chun Li starter, a Lilith Tin and a Felicia Deck, along with a ton of assorted Street Fighter cards.

Why so much? I am crazy. I keep trying to like it despite never enjoying it. Made a solid effort with the Jasco games version too.

Eh, I don't think the check system is too bad because of foundations being able to fix it. Not that I like it, I don't like Foundations in general and that's part of my problem enjoying the game, but the check being able to be fixed and acting more as a turn restrictor over a gambit changes the implementation a lot.

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11 hours ago, Edison Carasio said:

I tried getting into UFS and thought it was boring.

I find it tedious and I don't like the turn structure. Something I think DBZ does better with the back and forth and attacks not stopping to be modded, then blocked. Smoother and more intuitive game imo.

A merger of the two's better aspects would probably be straight sex though.

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21 hours ago, ChangelingBard said:

I don't think you have actually played UFS sir.  If one does not like dice rolls one cannot possibly like UFS's "check" system.  

Nah, son. Checks aren't even CLOOOOOSE to die rolls. Not even remotely. Die rolls are complete randomness, control checks are affected by deck construction, cards in play, and knowledge of your own deck. A good UFS player will ALWAYS know whether they will make a check or not unless they specifically make the choice of "ill see if i make this one" which will usually be the last card of their turn because in UFS once you fail a check your turn ends. Not even close.

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1 hour ago, sh0ryu_repp4 said:

Nah, son. Checks aren't even CLOOOOOSE to die rolls. Not even remotely. Die rolls are complete randomness, control checks are affected by deck construction, cards in play, and knowledge of your own deck. A good UFS player will ALWAYS know whether they will make a check or not unless they specifically make the choice of "ill see if i make this one" which will usually be the last card of their turn because in UFS once you fail a check your turn ends. Not even close.

But you can do all that to the dice in Destiny.  I played competitive UFS, I know a good deck, it's the exact same thing.  You just didn't want to try in Destiny like you did/do in UFS.  

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No it's not the same thing. Dice in Destiny you can only manipulate AFTER the randomness has been in play by rolling them. Control Checks for top play are NOT random, it isnt the same thing.

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2 hours ago, sh0ryu_repp4 said:

No it's not the same thing. Dice in Destiny you can only manipulate AFTER the randomness has been in play by rolling them. Control Checks for top play are NOT random, it isnt the same thing.

Flipping a 2 on fate and tapping foundations to clear it is the same as rolling a blank and playing a card to set it to another side.

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6 minutes ago, ChangelingBard said:

Flipping a 2 on fate and tapping foundations to clear it is the same as rolling a blank and playing a card to set it to another side.

As I said if you are checking "on fate" outside of the end of your turn, and you're running that many two checks in the first place, and it isn't your first turn, then you and I are just playing two very different games so I digress.

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I think you're missing the point altogether. I see the direction you're going with this Changeling and your not entirely off by making the comparison but Sho has a point that you're refusing to acknowledge. With dice, the randomness happens first, there is no control over the randomness before they're rolled and modifications happen after. In UFS there is control over the randomness before it happens. Deck construction, shuffling, stacking all affect the randomness, essentially allowing you some control over the value before it is generated. Sho's point is that the systems are inherently different because of this. The dice are rolled, than modified if possible. Before hand, outside of cheating, you have no control over what is rolled until after the randomness. 

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32 minutes ago, Majin Goo said:

Make the game around a dreidel while riding a motorcycle while Bubbles jumps on your head. If you lose Piccolo gets your first born child.

#stillbetterthandestiny

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Namekian was designed around DB manipulation, and rejuvenation. That's enough to base a style on. Add in some discard pile manipulation and effects that draw from the discard pile. Suddenly you have three things that Namekian does well.

Namekian shouldn't have gotten mill effects, anger, or extreme anti-anger cards. Just like how Red didn't need drills.

Saiyan was meant to be the style that foregoes MPPV in favor of using higher levels to win via survival. The problem? It wasn't fast enough at leveling, and most of the Saiyans sucked. Saiyan was also meant to be the endurance style, but eventually every deck was running 30-40 endurance per deck. Finally the "If your power level is higher than your opponent's do X" cards should have been better, and more frequent.

Anyway...

Black = Hand Destruction, Life deck dismantling, and discard pile banishing.

Red = MPPV, Level Hopping, and Combos.

Orange = Drills, Drills, and Drills.

Blue = Anti-Anger, Allies, and blocking.

Namekian = Rejuvenating, DB Manipulation, and Discard pile stacking.

Saiyan = Endurance, Survival via leveling, and "Do X if higher."

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