sh0ryu_repp4

North Kai Results?

42 posts in this topic

Errataing Promo krillin wouldnt have "fixed" the meta, but it would have made other matchups ALOT more manageable. Like there were 2 or 3 top decks at the time but BK at the top was SO FAR AHEAD of the rest that gap was almost unscalable. Errating it to be like the regular Krillin would have made that gap ALOT smaller

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4 hours ago, Majin Goo said:

Unfortunately, as with any other TCG, players aren't looking at the overall situation. They see something that they believe contributes solely to the problem and attack it. It's the same with BK. BK didn't break the game, he centralized it. An errata or a ban would not have fixed the BK meta. It would have still been small and there would still have only been 2-3 top decks. There just wasn't the card pool needed at the time to support a largely varied meta especially since most of the issue came from MP's with poor designs to begin with in the form of not enough effect on the game. 

On OCTGN, 75-80% of my games have been against retribution decks. If we look at these statistics, 9 retributions decks equals Blue Black and Red styles combined (all 7 masteries). We can look at past events and observe that the "Retribution Saturation" has been a fairly stable trend. We can even mention that Worlds was won by a Retribution deck.

Retribution is almost like combining Tag Team and Ascension mastery into one neat package, and it is a mastery that has gotten more than sufficient support. It's also a mastery that can literally be slapped on any Main Personality and still be a decent deck.

So in my mind we have 2 options:

We can unfreeze Enraged and Devious. We can also pretend like the other styles in this game don't exist.

OR

We can freeze this abomination of a mastery (Devious Mastery 2.0 ffs). Orange can still do things with Adept and Adaptive (I love both). At least Orange would still be playable whereas Black is just in a super awkward spot since the Devious freeze.

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I actually agree with v3rse. Retribution BY ITSELF isn't a problem. It is when you combine it with the cards in the orange pool that make it ridiculous. Just look at bicycle kick for a perfect example of the problems with orange...

but sadly yes my favorite style, black, sucks HARD and has since the freezing of devious... :'(

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1 minute ago, sh0ryu_repp4 said:

I actually agree with v3rse. Retribution BY ITSELF isn't a problem. It is when you combine it with the cards in the orange pool that make it ridiculous. Just look at bicycle kick for a perfect example of the problems with orange...

but sadly yes my favorite style, black, sucks HARD and has since the freezing of devious... :'(

Enraged and Devious BY THEMSELVES aren't a problem either, but its easier to just Occam's Razor that shiz. Retribution has earned itself to be frozen. Of course, that's just my opinion. If you like facing Retribution decks good for you (or heaven forbid you enjoy Retribution mirror match-ups).

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5 minutes ago, sh0ryu_repp4 said:

Eeehhh... I don't agree with the enraged and devious comparison. especially when you consider enraged wasnt really tier 1 until a few sets down the line.

I think that was the comparison he was making. Was if it didn't have a strong card pool, it would be fine. But it's effect, plus a good card pool is what makes it too strong?

I am still under the impression that Retribution and it's card pool are fine. It's the same mentality of balance of any game. Something is a head above the rest. Most would nerf it, because it's easy. However, the consequences of a nerf can be too harsh (Look at the state of black after devious ban). True enough, Orange would be more akin to red in that they would still be playable, but they certainly wouldn't be top tier anymore. But I am one who has never been a fan of the "nerf it into mediocracy" approach and would instead rather see the other styles receive more support. We already saw that a bit with the recent FanZ release. I will say Bicycle kick is a bit strong, but not every deck wants it so... sure? But overall, orange wasn't the style that received the best support. By releasing more direct support for the lesser weaker masteries, you could see less retribution, as other things start to catch up and get to experience the strength of the other masteries instead of feeling weakened without one.

 

So long as it doesn't go too far, like Enraged did, then it should be fine. Heck, with enough support, any of the masteries could be good. 

The biggest issue, in my noob opinion, is that the game lacks combos. This by itself is fine. Except Orange... Orange has combos and very strong internal synergy. That's a good thing. The style should have synergy. You don't want to be 8 sets in and have to fill your deck with random cards because "f- it why not." Build up the synergy of the other styles, allow for some of these low level combos to come through with other masteries and the game will really pick up speed.

Maybe...

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1 hour ago, sh0ryu_repp4 said:

Eeehhh... I don't agree with the enraged and devious comparison. especially when you consider enraged wasnt really tier 1 until a few sets down the line.

Glad someone else remembers Enraged was trash tier till Set 3, then it gradually got a little too good.

Devious was always broken.

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12 hours ago, sh0ryu_repp4 said:

Eeehhh... I don't agree with the enraged and devious comparison. especially when you consider enraged wasnt really tier 1 until a few sets down the line.

I am simply comparing deservedly frozen masteries to Retribution.

As an Enraged player from sets 1-4, I agree that Enraged decks and Devious decks were not always in the same boat. From Roshi onwards though, we can safely lump Enraged Decks and Devious decks in that broken tier.

My least favorite decks throughout this game have been these passive controlly Devious/Enraged decks (Cooler/Roshi) that could just sit back and do it's own lame thing.

I found these decks really limited the other strats available. Retribution Cooler/Roshi and Knowledge Cell have filled this void, much to my dismay.

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16 hours ago, Jaith1 said:

On OCTGN, 75-80% of my games have been against retribution decks. If we look at these statistics, 9 retributions decks equals Blue Black and Red styles combined (all 7 masteries). We can look at past events and observe that the "Retribution Saturation" has been a fairly stable trend. We can even mention that Worlds was won by a Retribution deck.

Retribution is almost like combining Tag Team and Ascension mastery into one neat package, and it is a mastery that has gotten more than sufficient support. It's also a mastery that can literally be slapped on any Main Personality and still be a decent deck.

So in my mind we have 2 options:

We can unfreeze Enraged and Devious. We can also pretend like the other styles in this game don't exist.

OR

We can freeze this abomination of a mastery (Devious Mastery 2.0 ffs). Orange can still do things with Adept and Adaptive (I love both). At least Orange would still be playable whereas Black is just in a super awkward spot since the Devious freeze.

 
 
 
 

My point is, that while BK was a problem, people assumed it was Krillin when in actual it was Black Devious Mastery. Orange Retribution Mastery is in no way as broken as Black Devious Mastery and can easily be played around in its current form. What you're referring to is called centralization and it can be as bad as being broken but isn't the same thing. Orange Retribution Mastery itself does not do anything inherently broken even when in combination. The problem comes from the card pool, ease of play, and it's ability to take bad players to good levels with a minimal skill cap requiring less skill to play well (which is why it sees so much play). Black Devious Mastery was broken by itself being capable of buffing attacks on two fronts while disrupting your opponent's hand and discard. It had that on top of a good card pool, ease of play, and a minimal skill cap. Orange needs a drill swap Mastery and something to give you an early start for those "go ham" decks. Giving the game "Drill Memory" as a mechanic for Styled Drills would do a lot to slow down Orange Retribution Mastery and would generally only impact Orange Retribution Mastery in a significant way. Nerfing Roshi by using an errata so that he only triggers on keyword "Shuffle" and taking away the 2 anger gain on Orange Retribution Mastery would significantly alter how oppressive MPPV builds would be while maintaining its core concept. 

Freezing should be a last resort and only when simple fixes won't alleviate the problem. I stand by what I said, a large number of DBZ players are short-sighted and lack the creativity needed to identify the reasoning behind the problem to begin with, let alone finding a fix that still allows for the existence of a core engine. 

For example, you could easily bring back Red Enraged Mastery with a simple fix. You could either change its level gain mechanic to only trigger when you "deal" critical damage or take it away entirely. The second allows for Ascension to still be the MPPV Mastery and gives red it's level hop Mastery back. In either case, all three Mastery cards will still likely see play. If you use the first option then you just have to change Red Shoulder Grab to ensure you don't open the door for Hercule abuse. Either option is simple and brings back a key engine for the game. 

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29 minutes ago, Majin Goo said:

Giving the game "Drill Memory"

I 110% agree with this, i ALWAYS thought it was the STUPIDEST thing in this game that drills DIDNT have memory.

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The whole point of Drills not having memory was to make them more unique and functional.  It was great for a while but retribution mastery and the newer cards really breaks this aspect of it. 

 

It is surprising with the amount of control aspects in this game that Panini devs really missed how versatile having the "tapped" keyword would be.  Certain drills should have conditions that say "if this card enters play during combat it is tapped" and opponents should have cards that tap an opponents drills/setups.  If I were a designer I would also make it so that drills only "uptap" at the start of your own turn. 

 

Point being: the problem is that there arent enough ways to deal with drills and this makes Orange a problem.  There needs to be ways to deal with board cards outside of destroying/banishing. 

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37 minutes ago, sh0ryu_repp4 said:

I 110% agree with this, i ALWAYS thought it was the STUPIDEST thing in this game that drills DIDNT have memory.

I used to be on the opposite end. I used to think drill memory was the dumbest thing... In hindsight I see now that I was wrong. The state of the game has changed and so has the versatility of drills. 

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27 minutes ago, The Bear said:

The whole point of Drills not having memory was to make them more unique and functional.  It was great for a while but retribution mastery and the newer cards really breaks this aspect of it. 

 

It is surprising with the amount of control aspects in this game that Panini devs really missed how versatile having the "tapped" keyword would be.  Certain drills should have conditions that say "if this card enters play during combat it is tapped" and opponents should have cards that tap an opponents drills/setups.  If I were a designer I would also make it so that drills only "uptap" at the start of your own turn. 

 

Point being: the problem is that there arent enough ways to deal with drills and this makes Orange a problem.  There needs to be ways to deal with board cards outside of destroying/banishing. 

 

Add to CDE; "negate a drill until the start of the next turn." 

Not sure how viable it is, but it's an idea to start the conversation.

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I agree with a lot of what has been said, but do try to keep in mind that this was only one event. And only 40 people. And at the beginning of a set that is just starting to get explored.

 

Also it is pretty normal for half the styles in a game to be better than the other half at any given point in time. And this has historically been true in this game. Now if this never changes then that's a problem. But look at the state of orange in set 6. Nearly unplayable. So it's only recently that it has become a top style. In fact prior to set 7 the only orange decks that really made an impact were set 4 android 20 and set 1 orange ginyu. Black was a top style for 6 sets, red for 3 or so, and namekian for arguably the entire game. So orange has earned a little time in the sun. For now.

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2 hours ago, v3rse said:

I agree with a lot of what has been said, but do try to keep in mind that this was only one event. And only 40 people. And at the beginning of a set that is just starting to get explored.

 

Also it is pretty normal for half the styles in a game to be better than the other half at any given point in time. And this has historically been true in this game. Now if this never changes then that's a problem. But look at the state of orange in set 6. Nearly unplayable. So it's only recently that it has become a top style. In fact prior to set 7 the only orange decks that really made an impact were set 4 android 20 and set 1 orange ginyu. Black was a top style for 6 sets, red for 3 or so, and namekian for arguably the entire game. So orange has earned a little time in the sun. For now.

This is 100% true but with everything else nerf'd and errata'd into the ground it just becomes a lot more noticeable.

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26 minutes ago, sh0ryu_repp4 said:

This is 100% true but with everything else nerf'd and errata'd into the ground it just becomes a lot more noticeable.

I mean all things considered this game relatively has very few nerfs/erratas. The biggest ones are freezing the set 1 masteries, bau unleashed, and cell 4 nerf. And I'd probably argue that the meta was in a better state with all the set 1 masteries frozen, but I also understand that since the game is "officially" dead people want to get as much as they can out of the existing stuff. And that means as many masteries as possible. Perhaps it makes retribution stick out more when the biggest nerfs in the game are frozen masteries, but retribution is not on the same level of broken as Devious and enraged  (with the current card pool and original wording). Not even close. And even if you freeze it that just opens the door for something else to be top dog (Empowered maybe). Seems better to just improve the card pool for the weaker styles then release a new set of masteries for the next starter set and reassess at that time. That's only 2 sets away. Not that long.

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I think it is just that since the masteries that were frozen were SO dominating, their absence is way more apparent. But I agree with what you mean.

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