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Card Slinger J

My Current Dilemma

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It's far from a bad game and this is coming from someone who plays solely for the mechanics. I don't really care much about Star Wars, never really have, but Destiny is a pretty damn good game with its only hurdle being accessibility up to this point.  I have been able to build 3 decks with not really spending much money, by buying starters and some singles off ebay and have enjoyed the game quite a bit.

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>Built In Randomisation Mechanic
>Good Game

Choose one.

Fun game, that I get. Good? Kinda think you're fooling yourself. Games being decided on a randomised mechanic with no skill involved creates situations where a player is steam rolled for no reason beyond bad luck or have games stolen from them.

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39 minutes ago, Artificial Human said:

>Built In Randomisation Mechanic
>Good Game

Choose one.

Fun game, that I get. Good? Kinda think you're fooling yourself. Games being decided on a randomised mechanic with no skill involved creates situations where a player is steam rolled for no reason beyond bad luck or have games stolen from them.

Every game is based on randomization.  Every, single, one.  From monopoly to Dbz. Settlers to dnd. Everything.   The only person fooling themselves is you for thinking that's a good argument. 

 

 

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I can't speak for anyone else on that, but I have personally always felt that while yes, every game has and requires luck. A good game, and a well built deck/good player, will find ways to mitigate that luck. That's why most card games I have seen judge a deck based on it's consistency.

 

No idea how well Destiny does that as I haven't played. But saying "all games have luck" while true, doesn't necessarily reflect how much luck.

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We're talking about card games, so let's limit it to that, not pull the goal post back.

Card games typically have one randomisation mechanic, the one intrinsic to their medium, card draw. It's only one type of chance influencing the game and only influences the tools at the players disposal. It can be swingy, but is largely manipulable through redundancy and using the good old hypergeometric calculator, the TCG players best friend.

When you get to games like Star Wars Destiny, Cardfight Vanguard, to some extent Pokemon and Duel Masters, you add another type of chance, it's much more apparent because it's not intrinsic to the medium. It's also not very manipulable, unless you cheat. It compounds how 'swingy' the game is by adding another layer to it, removing a layer of skill, as you have less control over your cards.

I'm not saying they're bad games, never once did I say that, swingy games decided by chance can be fun, but good as in 'this is a good test of skill', not at all.

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I feel as if you haven't played the game Artificial.  The entire game is built around dice and all the deck manipulation you are talking about is for the dice themselves.  Also the odds are much better understood with dice than cards.

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18 minutes ago, Artificial Human said:

We're talking about card games, so let's limit it to that, not pull the goal post back.

Card games typically have one randomisation mechanic, the one intrinsic to their medium, card draw. It's only one type of chance influencing the game and only influences the tools at the players disposal. It can be swingy, but is largely manipulable through redundancy and using the good old hypergeometric calculator, the TCG players best friend.

When you get to games like Star Wars Destiny, Cardfight Vanguard, to some extent Pokemon and Duel Masters, you add another type of chance, it's much more apparent because it's not intrinsic to the medium. It's also not very manipulable, unless you cheat. It compounds how 'swingy' the game is by adding another layer to it, removing a layer of skill, as you have less control over your cards.

I'm not saying they're bad games, never once did I say that, swingy games decided by chance can be fun, but good as in 'this is a good test of skill', not at all.

I haven't played the other games you mentioned but I have played table top war games for awhile now and one of the biggest differences with destiny in regards to dice is that there is a lot of manipulation of the dice once rolled. It's not well rolled shit and that's that. I can tell you haven't played a game (or one bad game and gave up) but Destiny plays different than all the table top (dice games) that I have played. I've also played card games for 20 years so I've kinda got a feel on how those play as well. 

To be frank there are lots of desicions made while playing and just like most games-player skill matters but there is always a chance to end up on the wrong end and that is something I wish gamers would just get over and stop acting like the are not allowed to lose 

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On 4/10/2017 at 1:24 PM, LeluGhost said:

Tell him to get his shit together, you returned something you borrowed.

It's Ben who doesn't want to talk to Bryce since he's been trying to contact Ben for months now, though had it been the other way around it still would've been a lose-lose situation which is why I'm not getting myself involved in their conflict. It's not my fault that Ben is the current owner of Bryce's cards as I was only doing what I thought was necessary by returning them back to him. If Bryce has a problem then he should take it with Ben and Dustin not me. I could try to call Ben myself to try to sort things out however it would only end up doing more harm than good since he'd probably get suspicious about me calling him on Bryce's behalf.

On 4/10/2017 at 3:28 PM, The Bear said:

As far as getting sued?  I wouldn't worry about it.  The value of these cards is too low to justify litigation of any sort in civil court.  You did nothing criminal, so nothing to worry about in that regard either.

With the exception of the Piccolo MP stack, the signed Piccolo's Weighted Clothing's were roughly estimated at around $25-30+ based on Larry Kenney's autographs alone however the monetary value of the cards weren't really in question here when it was more about the sentimental value of them as they actually meant more toward Bryce than it did to Ben and Dustin yet Ben ended up gaining ownership of the cards from Dustin by trading a Villainous Energy Sphere for them at the 2015 Kansas Regional event which once belonged to both Bryce and Dustin since they technically shared the cards with each other at one point.

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5 hours ago, Trunks123 said:

To be frank there are lots of desicions made while playing and just like most games-player skill matters but there is always a chance to end up on the wrong end and that is something I wish gamers would just get over and stop acting like the are not allowed to lose 

I feel this statement is filled with bias and counter-intuitive to the amount of experience you've gathered in 20 years. While luck is a factor in all games and in casual can be fun, in high-level competitive play it should have a minimal factor at best. It's one thing to lose to a small act of luck in a game that could have swung either way, but to assume a player should just get over a complete steam roll from a clear lead and win, that would have been achieved in less than one or two more actions, entirely because of luck, while money is on the line is a bit much. 

With that being said, I've never played SWD and am not speaking to it's merits. I would probably be playing it if I hadn't already sworn off of TCG's for the time being. However, as a table top lifer, you should understand why that statement is too generalized when speaking of competitive play which is the point of view Artificial is coming from. It won't help in defending the game to throw out generalizations like that or to speak to someone else's experience without their confirmation. 

5 hours ago, ChangelingBard said:

I feel as if you haven't played the game Artificial.  The entire game is built around dice and all the deck manipulation you are talking about is for the dice themselves.  Also the odds are much better understood with dice than cards.

That's what I've seen and it doesn't seem so bad, but I can understand how some players looking in that have little experience with dice based games might be put off. Have you tried convincing people to play Heroclix before, it's painful and a downhill battle as soon as they see the dice and learn character abilities and which ones you have access to are based on were your character is on life. There's tons of manipulation to counter luck in the game but easing people into it can be hard. 

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3 hours ago, Card Slinger J said:

It's Ben who doesn't want to talk to Bryce since he's been trying to contact Ben for months now, though had it been the other way around it still would've been a lose-lose situation which is why I'm not getting myself involved in their conflict. It's not my fault that Ben is the current owner of Bryce's cards as I was only doing what I thought was necessary by returning them back to him. If Bryce has a problem then he should take it with Ben and Dustin not me. I could try to call Ben myself to try to sort things out however it would only end up doing more harm than good since he'd probably get suspicious about me calling him on Bryce's behalf.

With the exception of the Piccolo MP stack, the signed Piccolo's Weighted Clothing's were roughly estimated at around $25-30+ based on Larry Kenney's autographs alone however the monetary value of the cards weren't really in question here when it was more about the sentimental value of them as they actually meant more toward Bryce than it did to Ben and Dustin yet Ben ended up gaining ownership of the cards from Dustin by trading a Villainous Energy Sphere for them at the 2015 Kansas Regional event which once belonged to both Bryce and Dustin since they technically shared the cards with each other at one point.

Shit will happen and you're smart to steer clear for now. Hopefully, things will cool down. 

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10 hours ago, ChangelingBard said:

I feel as if you haven't played the game Artificial.  The entire game is built around dice and all the deck manipulation you are talking about is for the dice themselves.  Also the odds are much better understood with dice than cards.

Only demoed. If I have an experience not reflective of constructed play, probably because of that.

But saying that, I still stand by my statement that multiple factors of chance strip a game of competitive merit. Casual? Could be fun as all get out.

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11 hours ago, Card Slinger J said:

With the exception of the Piccolo MP stack, the signed Piccolo's Weighted Clothing's were roughly estimated at around $25-30+ based on Larry Kenney's autographs alone however the monetary value of the cards weren't really in question here when it was more about the sentimental value of them as they actually meant more toward Bryce than it did to Ben and Dustin yet Ben ended up gaining ownership of the cards from Dustin by trading a Villainous Energy Sphere for them at the 2015 Kansas Regional event which once belonged to both Bryce and Dustin since they technically shared the cards with each other at one point.

I was responding to your concern of getting sued.  I know the value of the cards was not in question; the point being they arent worth enough to sue over, whether that be for monetary or sentimental value.  Not even Judge Judy would hear this case.

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5 hours ago, Artificial Human said:

Only demoed. If I have an experience not reflective of constructed play, probably because of that.

But saying that, I still stand by my statement that multiple factors of chance strip a game of competitive merit. Casual? Could be fun as all get out.

"I played the DBZ demo, but I was given Perceptive Mastery and it was shit, so the game must be shit.  Could be fun casually I guess, but with factors like bad masteries how can anyone play competitively? It's not like there are other options in the game."

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31 minutes ago, ChangelingBard said:

"I played the DBZ demo, but I was given Perceptive Mastery and it was shit, so the game must be shit.  Could be fun casually I guess, but with factors like bad masteries how can anyone play competitively? It's not like there are other options in the game."

Ok, well I entered 3 tournaments, do I have enough XP to say I don't like it? Or do I have to win a regional first? :P

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9 minutes ago, sh0ryu_repp4 said:

Ok, well I entered 3 tournaments, do I have enough XP to say I don't like it? Or do I have to win a regional first? :P

 

Given the current track record of these discussions, if you haven't won a regional yet your opinion doesn't account for a steaming pile of...

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9 minutes ago, sh0ryu_repp4 said:

Ok, well I entered 3 tournaments, do I have enough XP to say I don't like it? Or do I have to win a regional first? :P

You don't have to like shit.  You don't get to say it's a bad game as if it were fact instead of your opinion. 

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14 minutes ago, Edison Carasio said:

 

Anachronism was an amazing game with dice as a core mechanic.  

That game has ALOOOOOT more depth and is WAAAAYYYY better designed than destiny tho. they are almost the exception that proves the rule.

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30 minutes ago, sh0ryu_repp4 said:

That game has ALOOOOOT more depth and is WAAAAYYYY better designed than destiny tho. they are almost the exception that proves the rule.

 

Anachronism is the greatest game ever.  And if you don't like that, then I got two words for ya.

 

DCVVPFy.gif

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On 4/13/2017 at 7:16 AM, The Bear said:

I was responding to your concern of getting sued.  I know the value of the cards was not in question; the point being they arent worth enough to sue over, whether that be for monetary or sentimental value.  Not even Judge Judy would hear this case.

My friend Bryce showed up again last Friday at my LGS and judging by the way things went he doesn't know about what happened and I didn't tell him in fear that he wouldn't want to be friends with me anymore. They say that the truth will set one free however in this case it would've gotten me in more trouble as it wasn't my intention to hurt him by returning the cards I borrowed to Ben who used to be friends with Bryce.

It was probably for the best however I get the feeling that this is going to come back to haunt me in the near future If any of us mention about Ben or the Thundercats series. Bryce came by from work to play in a MTG cube event which I thought he was actually participating in the Amonkhet Prerelease event that I thought they were going to have and gave me some good advice on my EDH/Commander deck.

He wanted to get a few games in of Panini Z but unfortunately I only had a deck for Fan Z and a deck for a format that my friend Nathan created.

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