Artificial Human

How do you feel about MPPV?

57 posts in this topic

I've been thinking about MPPV lately. I know many really love Tuff Enuff, but I've always been of the thought that 'Since MPPV was one of the original parts of the game, to remove it would be sacrilege' or something along those lines.

But I do see where people are coming from and it can lead to problems.

It's a feel bads victory condition. It's not really engaging in the slightest and you're rewarded for your opponent's inability to deal with it effectively along with your ability to play Solitaire. Same could be said of DBV, but Dragon Balls aren't part of the normal mechanics like Anger is. I also feel that to some degree, it holds the game back. In a game without MPPV, really severe Anger Restraints such as Wallbreaker, Severe Bruises, ect, wouldn't be needed. You don't win from it, you just get stronger.

I still think Anger has a place, working towards gaining levels, just as the more I think about it, I think the game as a whole could be better without MPPV.

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     It kind of depends.  I like anger as purely a mechanic to get stronger, but as long as cards like Unleashed exist anger is not necessarily the best option if your only goal is to level up to get stronger, but even that depends on the type of deck.

     i think MPPV is totally lame, but is needed as a sort of "balance of power."  There can be some frustratingly defensive decks that give any survival oriented deck a tough time (especially Namekian).  These types of super-defensive decks tend to struggle with dedicated MPPV decks because there are only so many ways to deal with anger using only defenses.  Juggling NDB2 is freaking annoying, though...I've lost so many games to a perfectly timed NDB2 draw from my opponent and I was never even playing MPPV!

     I could be completely wrong though; that was an off the top of my head example.  Without MPPV I fear many annoying types of decks would become very strong.  To be fair though, Orange Ret really gave MPPV some more presence.  It's no Black Devious, but maybe it is a teensy bit too strong.

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I think the game having multiple win conditions keeps things more interesting. And mppv is needed to balance against slow defensive decks. Yes losing to a lucky draw last minute dbv or a solitaire mppv sucks, but with properly built decks this is not that common. Overall it makes the game more interesting and balanced. 

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It's necessary because it is aggro and tempo in this game.  Seldom do we actually have enough force in beatdown to topple the inevitable control strategies that come to the forefront.

It feels bad, but so does getting locked down and lose to attrition.  MPPV puts a fast tempo on the format, and it's one of the reasons this game lasted as long as it did.

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While MPPV may help balance the game due to the presence of certain deck types, this mechanic itself needs to be fairly balanced in order to work.

 

MPPV becomes a garbage mechanic when power creep happens but was a problem since set 1 really.  The only things stopping Namek Piccolo in Set 1 were Blue Ginyu and Black Krillin.  Due to power creep over time it seems many new cards have "raise your anger/lower your opponents anger" simply tacked on since styles need to do their own thing AND defend against or threaten MPPV.

 

I've been thinking about it lately and I think one of the big problems with this game compared to others is that many actions have no cost whatsoever.  If I were to ever remake this game I would add a "Stamina" mechanic in order to help limit actions in some regards.  It would be similar to the power stage mechanic in the game but the resource would be used in different ways in order to limit players actions to an extent.  Think about it this way: want to use Unleashed on your first turn?  Well, thats going to eat up most of your stamina and you may be a sitting duck unless you can find a way to raise it during combat.

 

Comparing it to Magic, things that cost a lot of mana cannot be played early game due to how much mana they cost which is based on powerful they are.  There is no such balancing factor in DBZ; powerful cards often have the same cost (none) as other cards that are less useful.  Limiting actions helps drive strategic thinking, something this game lacks due to lack of a balancing factor between cards.

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We've had the magic comparison before... it's apples and oranges.

To your point about cost, and using MTG as your reference, you then have to consider a few things. I think the 1st, is that cards in general are your primary resource in DBZ. You only get so many cards per turn and unlike other games, only get to hold 1, sometimes 2, cards at MOST in your hand for later turns. So in MTG, when you draw those expensive cards, they can wait until later without taking up anything beyond their draw slot, which by itself isn't that big of a deal assuming your deck was designed with it in mind. In DBZ, you draw a card of similar cost where it would be dead for a few turns, then it doesn't belong in the deck because you simply can't hold that card until it's useful.

 

Second point on cost, is you're right. Mana cost curves deck speed. The new "unleashed" of the deck are now resource cards such as the well known Black Lotus. Cards that can ramp up your mana curve and make those resources less of a burden become so valuable to a lot of decks. MTG has a ton of them, and most of them cost a fair bit more then the rest of the cards produced for a reason.

 

Tl;dr - It's a design problem. No matter what you decide to use as a limiting factor, if designed poorly it won't work.

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5 hours ago, The Bear said:

Comparing it to Magic, things that cost a lot of mana cannot be played early game due to how much mana they cost which is based on powerful they are.  

1

Step outside of Standard (and sometimes in it depending on the block) and that sentence becomes non-existant. 

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I've never liked mppv. It feels like a cheap way to win, especially when it doesn't make sense for 80% of the characters in the game. Wtf is Krillin reaching maximum power gonna do? Absolutely nothing, but somehow, he's won the game. Anger should just be a leveling mechanic. The game should be about survival and dbv, because a wish is an obvious auto-win and even if you reach maximum power, you still have to kill your opponent. 

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2 minutes ago, Emperor said:

I've never liked mppv. It feels like a cheap way to win, especially when it doesn't make sense for 80% of the characters in the game. Wtf is Krillin reaching maximum power gonna do? Absolutely nothing, but somehow, he's won the game. Anger should just be a leveling mechanic. The game should be about survival and dbv, because a wish is an obvious auto-win. 

Tell that to Pilaf or Garlic Jr  (The auto-win part)

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I really don't feel like this game (or any game) should 100% represent their respective series. I like to think this game itself has mechanics and inspirations from dbz but it is it's own entity. No, krillin powering up to full isn't going to curb stomp even Frieza but you're not watching the show. You're playing the game. Survival gets boring which is why yugioh has things like exodia and mtg has poison counters. It prevents the monotony of "well either I kill him or he kills me. again." Having to compensate for different win conditions which also means different play styles is what keeps you on your toes and makes this game fun.

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1 hour ago, Majin Goo said:

Step outside of Standard (and sometimes in it depending on the block) and that sentence becomes non-existant. 

Lol, good point. Yeah, I wasn't thinking outside of standard.  But in legacy the reason why everything is low cost is because of power creep over time and cards now existing outside of the "block" they were designed for.

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1 hour ago, Emperor said:

I've never liked mppv. It feels like a cheap way to win, especially when it doesn't make sense for 80% of the characters in the game. Wtf is Krillin reaching maximum power gonna do? Absolutely nothing, but somehow, he's won the game. Anger should just be a leveling mechanic. The game should be about survival and dbv, because a wish is an obvious auto-win and even if you reach maximum power, you still have to kill your opponent. 

Trying to apply anime logic is bad for your game experience.  By using that logic, Goku should be the only playable character and be designed OP every time.

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1 hour ago, Edison Carasio said:

Trying to apply anime logic is bad for your game experience.  By using that logic, Goku should be the only playable character and be designed OP every time.

It doesn't change the fact that it's a non-interactive victory condition that's hard to balance AND doesn't flavorfully match the source material (in case it went unnoticed, the flavor argument was secondary) 

 

There are already 2 victory conditions that make sense. A game doesn't need 3 (especially when the dev team doesn't test anything before printing.  No way namekian knowledge was actually tested.) Nothing happened, but somehow, the game is over. Unless your whole deck is built to stop it, there is no stopping it, especially when enraged was around. So then they try to counteract it with a bunch of cards that don't let players gain anger, or drop anger at an absurd level, which just ruins the mechanic in the game that's most fun, helps you reach the main victory condition, AND is flavorful to the series; and that's leveling up/getting stronger. So now because this bogus victory condition exists, I can't achieve a higher level to play non-solitaire? Oh, wait, that's no fun, so then we get broken cards like unleashed to fix that because players are no longer able to play the game how it's truly meant to be played. Then what? People bitch about unleashed because it reliably allows you to level in this anti-power up meta created, because, you know, high level vs high level is when the game's core system (combat) is at its peak. Now it's too easy to get there. All of which could've been avoided if either A. They would actually play test or B. MPPV didn't exist, causing all of these balance issues to begin with. 

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5 hours ago, Edison Carasio said:

Any win condition is only a problem when the game's cards are incompetently designed.  I could design a bunch of FTK cards then make an argument that survival is busted.

 

15 minutes ago, Emperor said:

It doesn't change the fact that it's a non-interactive victory condition that's hard to balance AND doesn't flavorfully match the source material (in case it went unnoticed, the flavor argument was secondary) 

 

There are already 2 victory conditions that make sense. A game doesn't need 3 (especially when the dev team doesn't test anything before printing.  No way namekian knowledge was actually tested.) Nothing happened, but somehow, the game is over. Unless your whole deck is built to stop it, there is no stopping it, especially when enraged was around. So then they try to counteract it with a bunch of cards that don't let players gain anger, or drop anger at an absurd level, which just ruins the mechanic in the game that's most fun, helps you reach the main victory condition, AND is flavorful to the series; and that's leveling up/getting stronger. So now because this bogus victory condition exists, I can't achieve a higher level to play non-solitaire? Oh, wait, that's no fun, so then we get broken cards like unleashed to fix that because players are no longer able to play the game how it's truly meant to be played. All of which could've been avoided if either A. They would actually play test or B. MPPV didn't exist, causing all of these balance issues to begin with. 

I don't disagree with this either of you. This is why I made the topic, I'm of two minds on the subject. I also think because it's part of the original design, it has every right to be here.

I guess I'll ask the same question to everyone as it relates, it was a direct result of Knowledge's MPPV and created a slippery slope to Unleashed.

Do you think Wallbreaker's existance at the time it was released was justified?

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I like Wallbreaker. It has been clutch in too many games for it to not be something I enjoy.

What I don't like, is that there isn't an energy attack version of it. 

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Oh I'm not arguing Wallbreaker's existance. I think it might have overestimated how easy Critical Damage was to deal, but I don't think it shouldn't have existed.

I'm questioning when. Much like Ginyu and Premier Piccolo 2.

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MPPV is a secondary win condition that needs to exist so aggro and stall don't dominate play.  Other games have this mechanic too and it works out well.  Has it been executed right in any version of Dbz? Fuck no.  Does it need to be around? Fuck Yes. 

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I think the inevitable conclusion is that DBZ is just a very un-interactive game.  

Like most games, the winning strategy is to deny input from your opponent so your game plan goes through.  In DBZ you can do this VERY WELL.  The best decks most often end up playing off of what they can guarantee:  Anger or Inevitability, both of which can be done with limited interaction.

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56 minutes ago, Emperor said:

It doesn't change the fact that it's a non-interactive victory condition that's hard to balance AND doesn't flavorfully match the source material (in case it went unnoticed, the flavor argument was secondary) 

 

There are already 2 victory conditions that make sense. A game doesn't need 3 (especially when the dev team doesn't test anything before printing.  No way namekian knowledge was actually tested.) Nothing happened, but somehow, the game is over. Unless your whole deck is built to stop it, there is no stopping it, especially when enraged was around. So then they try to counteract it with a bunch of cards that don't let players gain anger, or drop anger at an absurd level, which just ruins the mechanic in the game that's most fun, helps you reach the main victory condition, AND is flavorful to the series; and that's leveling up/getting stronger. So now because this bogus victory condition exists, I can't achieve a higher level to play non-solitaire? Oh, wait, that's no fun, so then we get broken cards like unleashed to fix that because players are no longer able to play the game how it's truly meant to be played. Then what? People bitch about unleashed because it reliably allows you to level in this anti-power up meta created, because, you know, high level vs high level is when the game's core system (combat) is at its peak. Now it's too easy to get there. All of which could've been avoided if either A. They would actually play test or B. MPPV didn't exist, causing all of these balance issues to begin with. 

While I agree with most of your points, most of these are more about how things weren't balanced in the best way rather than a problem with the mechanic itself. I really do think alternative win conditions are important to keep the game from feeling stagnant. And for balance. 

 

Artificial Human- I think wallbreaker is fine now but probably came out a set too soon at least. It was just too powerful and didn't have reliable answers in set 2. Set 3 at least provided a villain answer in sagacious strike. Yes knowledge piccolo needed an answer, but it was too easy of an instant and almost insurmountable counter. And more than that it hurt other strategies that relied on anger even more. Like Saiyan and red who were already underdogs at the time, and villain vegeta and frieza who were also low tier at best. Wallbreaker is largely responsible for the pervasiveness of Devious krillin and blue ginyu for many sets after. Luckily it has more synergistic counters now.

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MPPV shows how you can’t match extremes with extremes in card design.

 

Designer 1: Here’s an OP MPPV deck that wins in 3 turns!

 

Designer 2: Here’s Wallbreaker!

 

Vegeta player: The fuck did you guys just do? My deck blows now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Designer 1: Here’s Ginyu!

 

Designer 2: Here’s Nappa!

 

Designer 1: Oh yeah? Here’s a bunch more villain allies!

 

Designer 2: Yeah? Here’s A17!

 

Designer 1: K. Here’s Tag Team!

 

Roshi Player: The fuck did you guys just do? I have no way of dealing with Nappa now!

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2 hours ago, SirCod said:

MPPV shows how you can’t match extremes with extremes in card design.

 

Designer 1: Here’s an OP MPPV deck that wins in 3 turns!

 

Designer 2: Here’s Wallbreaker!

 

Vegeta player: The fuck did you guys just do? My deck blows now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Designer 1: Here’s Ginyu!

 

Designer 2: Here’s Nappa!

 

Designer 1: Oh yeah? Here’s a bunch more villain allies!

 

Designer 2: Yeah? Here’s A17!

 

Designer 1: K. Here’s Tag Team!

 

Roshi Player: The fuck did you guys just do? I have no way of dealing with Nappa now!

This is the balance that no DBZ game has figured out yet.   

The more I retrospect on DBZ as a game, the more I think a new iteration needs to switch up the mechanics a bit.  Compared to Yugioh and Magic, this game is just uninteractive.  You have a brief opening to interact with the opponent, and with secondary effects, the best decks usually come down to generating anger or setting up a board that your opponent can't out value, meaning interaction is typically a one dimensional "lower anger" or just basic removal.  I love the hell out of the game, but it only tends to appeal to the control player and has rarely found balance due to the non-interactive ways to outvalue the opponent.

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1 hour ago, LeluGhost said:

This is the balance that no DBZ game has figured out yet.   

The more I retrospect on DBZ as a game, the more I think a new iteration needs to switch up the mechanics a bit.  Compared to Yugioh and Magic, this game is just uninteractive.  You have a brief opening to interact with the opponent, and with secondary effects, the best decks usually come down to generating anger or setting up a board that your opponent can't out value, meaning interaction is typically a one dimensional "lower anger" or just basic removal.  I love the hell out of the game, but it only tends to appeal to the control player and has rarely found balance due to the non-interactive ways to outvalue the opponent.

I think the first mechanic fix needs to be cards resolving as a whole vs. sentence by sentence with cards being interrupted half way through their effects. Essentially, it needs a stack mechanic and built with that in mind. Interactive play needs to be introduced in set 1 as a core concept. The designers spent the first 4 sets afraid to make this game interactive, but that's not their fault. From my own observation, a vast number of DBZ players didn't want this game to become interactive. Simply put, players just don't want the opponent to be able to respond to their actions. 

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6 hours ago, Majin Goo said:

I think the first mechanic fix needs to be cards resolving as a whole vs. sentence by sentence with cards being interrupted half way through their effects. Essentially, it needs a stack mechanic and built with that in mind. Interactive play needs to be introduced in set 1 as a core concept. The designers spent the first 4 sets afraid to make this game interactive, but that's not their fault. From my own observation, a vast number of DBZ players didn't want this game to become interactive. Simply put, players just don't want the opponent to be able to respond to their actions. 

I think this is true because the DBZ following is well established and wants to promote tradition, but I think a larger audience outside of the established crowd would prefer a more interactive game.  Of course, I have no clue how to do that, since the core of the game revolves around the combat system, and that very combat system is what promotes passive and uninteractive play.  I think the principle of it could create an original new game however.

Totally agree on the stack, chain, or some form of rules that cover the resolution of effects.  

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