Artificial Human

Did Pan Z damage the game?

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Despite, or probably because of Fan Z, both here and Retro are dead as door nails. 'The Dead Zone' for the blog seems disturbingly apt.

I'm not terribly sure of how Retro/Score Z was before Pan Z, but it seemed to have a much larger community than Pan Z is now and Pan Z pretty much killed Retro/Score Z.

Seems like Pan Z might have, in the long run, done more damage than good.

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Well, Fan Z did finally update their blog last night...took long enough.

I did play Score Z and the fan base was much larger it seemed.  I remember going to some pretty awesome tournaments with LOTS of players (200+).  However, I am convinced that Pan Z was a better and more balanced game for several reasons:

1. Score Z had so many "Stop all of this type of attack this combat LOL" cards that there were many combats where I could not deal damage to my opponent.  The fact that Gohan's Kick had to exist is a travesty.

2. Dragonball Victory decks were very strong.  I made top 4 several times and always lots to some 55 card DBV deck that just ended combat and defended all game.  Super lame. 

3. Namekian and Saiyan had inherent hand advantage with their masteries.  I played Namekian physical beats and did better than I should have done simply because I had six card hands with the level 1 promo Cell with 2 AT +3 physical attacks as his level 1.  That with namekian's attack pool gave me more attack per combat than my opponent could handle.

I only really played Namekian and Orange in Score Z (other than "for fun" decks).  But in Pan Z, I have made viable decks of every style because they can all be good.  I'm not saying they couldn't all be good in Score Z, but I feel like the Pan Z situation was better (at least toward the end...I did not start playing until the very end of the reign of Black Krillin). 

I think Score Z was more popular because:

1. It was fresh.  We love the engine and when it was first introduced, it was wicked awesome.  It was very barebones at first.  We didn't have MASTERIES until set 3!  IMO the game REALLY took off when Cell Games hit.  I remember my Namekian deck went from garbage to competitive after that set.  Endurance? Focused attacks?  The game became so much better with those new mechanics.  Good times...

2. DBZ was still in its heyday.  Toonami was still doing reruns at the time if I remember.  Pan Z did not have that to run on; DBZ had been done airing for over a decade.

And I am by no means bashing the score game.  I would give anything to go back to that time in my life.  The tournaments.  The exorbitant amounts of promos and collectibles.  The weekly tournaments.  It was a blast. 

This is all just my opinion of course!  Sorry for the long post but I think this is an interesting topic.  Anybody disagree? 

TLDR: I don't think Pan Z was bad for the game.  Definitely not worse than no resurrection at all.  We have to wait and see with Fan Z, though. With the licensing issue I think Fan Z might be our only hope.  The game was already wished back to life once...if it is snuffed out again it might be gone for good. :(

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Ugh sorry one thing I forgot to mention...

When I learned about Pan Z right before Set 3 dropped, I went out and spent all the money.  I was so freaking pumped.  When I learned about some of the new Pan Z rules I was even MORE pumped. 

IMO one magnificent new rule Pan Z introduced was the rule with named cards.  It was stupid that in Score MPs could use any named card.  I like how they are exclusive to that char now.  Gives each MP a totally unique feel and playstyle. Critical damage is also awesome.  Inherent ally hate!  Remember how bonkers ally decks could be in Score Z due to sheer numbers?  The new ally rules in Pan Z cleared that up, and ally decks are still very potent, but they are much more strategic now and less "DROP ALL DUH ALLIES ON DUH TABLEZ."

Upon reading your post again though I don't think I addressed your concern at all.  With all that happened I suppose Pan Z might have harmed the game.  I'm not ton Retro.  I feel like the licensing fiasco really left a bad taste in peoples' mouths.  Such a waste...Set 7 was awesome, too.

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I've said before that I didn't really get to play within the Score Z format, and this is true for the time it was originally going. I was largely unaffected by the card game (much to my current chagrin), so I didn't really get to partake in it when it was going full ham, but I have since gone back and played it after finding out about Pan Z (starting with the GBA game, and then moving onto actual simulators with local friends).

This in mind, there were several key things we noticed in the difference between the two; A. That PanZ was an all-around more well-balanced and well-constructed game, and B. That Score-Z was anything but newcomer friendly. You had to come in hot for Dragon Ball Z, and you had to come in hungry to really dig into it. Otherwise, the overwhelming number of cards you had access to (including Named Cards), and the sheer number of cards that stepped on each-other's toes (including all the Enraged Variants), not to mention the insanely heavy control formats the game had introduced (mentioned previously by arbiter there) resulted in a generally unfriendly format where you pretty much just maintained a core audience.

This in mind, PanZ presented the game in a much more newcomer-friendly and technical system, which sounds like an oxymoron, but with the additional rules set down (again mentioned by arbiter), deck building became much more technical and much less generic. I personally favor either Freestyle or Saiyan Styles when playing ScoreZ because of the ridiculous number of control-based Freestyle cards that become searchable with Masteries, and the sheer maintained hand advantage Saiyans had (especially when you added on things like Vegeta's Quickness Drill to either [I may not remember that card name right]). ScoreZ was a much less interactive or engaging game, at least from what I have experienced and seen of it. Hell, judging from the fact that PanZ COULD even kill off the old format, I'm going to take a gander and say that a large portion of the fan-base feels some form of agreement (else-wise, there was no conducive way to kill off the older game and PanZ would've died in early development).

As for if FanZ has "killed the game", honestly, we're still in the early stages of FanZ. These individuals who have decided to continue the game have just lost a source of steady income in the loss of PanZ, now face huge real life shifts in their work loads and daily lives, and are still dedicated to trying to get some form of engagement with the fan community. While I feel there's room for criticism and better communication between the community and the FanZ body, I feel as though asking these questions, and putting this pressure on this early, instead of trying to find ways to constructively criticize or help are counter-intuitive to the development of a continued format. I think the reality is that the game died not because of FanZ, but because PanZ was cancelled and FanZ is having difficulty getting off the ground while the dust is fresh and everyone's still hungry.

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Nah, there is just nothing to talk about with the game being dead and all.  It's just back down to the hardcores and all of them have lives.

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It basically comes down to people having lives and this no longer being a major focus. I have two hobbies at any given time and this is not one of those active hobbies. The only reason I still visit this site is that there are still some decent people to have conversations with here but Score/Pan/FanZ is not a current focus for me right now.

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From a pure gaming standpoint PanZ is the best iteration of this game. If Set 1 had made a few changes this game would have been epic from the start: 

1) Radiant Mastery and Earth Db's instead of knowledge Mastery and namek db's would have made DB victory accessible to all styles and a very volatile/interactive experience.

2) Krillin Promo didn't exist. 

3) Devious Mastery, Protective Mastery and Ginyu lv1 mildly nerfed.

This would have been a healthy start for a game that periodically came out with mp's that are fun but not overpowered (set 2 mp's are a perfect example)

Outside of game mechanics, Panini wouldn't or couldn't provide the resources this  game needed/deserved, but that's life.

Once dbsuper card ass fails, we can do some sort of kickstarter and truly do it perfect.

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1 hour ago, Jaith1 said:

From a pure gaming standpoint PanZ is the best iteration of this game. If Set 1 had made a few changes this game would have been epic from the start: 

1) Radiant Mastery and Earth Db's instead of knowledge Mastery and namek db's would have made DB victory accessible to all styles and a very volatile/interactive experience.

2) Krillin Promo didn't exist. 

3) Devious Mastery, Protective Mastery and Ginyu lv1 mildly nerfed.

This would have been a healthy start for a game that periodically came out with mp's that are fun but not overpowered (set 2 mp's are a perfect example)

Outside of game mechanics, Panini wouldn't or couldn't provide the resources this  game needed/deserved, but that's life.

Once dbsuper card ass fails, we can do some sort of kickstarter and truly do it perfect.

That might be the one kickstarter I support!

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3 hours ago, Denithan said:

I've said before that I didn't really get to play within the Score Z format, and this is true for the time it was originally going. I was largely unaffected by the card game (much to my current chagrin), so I didn't really get to partake in it when it was going full ham, but I have since gone back and played it after finding out about Pan Z (starting with the GBA game, and then moving onto actual simulators with local friends).

This in mind, there were several key things we noticed in the difference between the two; A. That PanZ was an all-around more well-balanced and well-constructed game, and B. That Score-Z was anything but newcomer friendly. You had to come in hot for Dragon Ball Z, and you had to come in hungry to really dig into it. Otherwise, the overwhelming number of cards you had access to (including Named Cards), and the sheer number of cards that stepped on each-other's toes (including all the Enraged Variants), not to mention the insanely heavy control formats the game had introduced (mentioned previously by arbiter there) resulted in a generally unfriendly format where you pretty much just maintained a core audience.

This in mind, PanZ presented the game in a much more newcomer-friendly and technical system, which sounds like an oxymoron, but with the additional rules set down (again mentioned by arbiter), deck building became much more technical and much less generic. I personally favor either Freestyle or Saiyan Styles when playing ScoreZ because of the ridiculous number of control-based Freestyle cards that become searchable with Masteries, and the sheer maintained hand advantage Saiyans had (especially when you added on things like Vegeta's Quickness Drill to either [I may not remember that card name right]). ScoreZ was a much less interactive or engaging game, at least from what I have experienced and seen of it. Hell, judging from the fact that PanZ COULD even kill off the old format, I'm going to take a gander and say that a large portion of the fan-base feels some form of agreement (else-wise, there was no conducive way to kill off the older game and PanZ would've died in early development).

As for if FanZ has "killed the game", honestly, we're still in the early stages of FanZ. These individuals who have decided to continue the game have just lost a source of steady income in the loss of PanZ, now face huge real life shifts in their work loads and daily lives, and are still dedicated to trying to get some form of engagement with the fan community. While I feel there's room for criticism and better communication between the community and the FanZ body, I feel as though asking these questions, and putting this pressure on this early, instead of trying to find ways to constructively criticize or help are counter-intuitive to the development of a continued format. I think the reality is that the game died not because of FanZ, but because PanZ was cancelled and FanZ is having difficulty getting off the ground while the dust is fresh and everyone's still hungry.

 

1 hour ago, Jaith1 said:

From a pure gaming standpoint PanZ is the best iteration of this game. If Set 1 had made a few changes this game would have been epic from the start: 

1) Radiant Mastery and Earth Db's instead of knowledge Mastery and namek db's would have made DB victory accessible to all styles and a very volatile/interactive experience.

2) Krillin Promo didn't exist. 

3) Devious Mastery, Protective Mastery and Ginyu lv1 mildly nerfed.

This would have been a healthy start for a game that periodically came out with mp's that are fun but not overpowered (set 2 mp's are a perfect example)

Outside of game mechanics, Panini wouldn't or couldn't provide the resources this  game needed/deserved, but that's life.

Once dbsuper card ass fails, we can do some sort of kickstarter and truly do it perfect.

It makes me happy that other people feel the same way I do about Pan Z, that despite its flaws, it was the best version of the DBZ game to date!

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Score Z made steady progress, getting better and better as time went on. Yes, Score Z had it's share of OP nonsense, but it was an entirely new card game. Nobody had any clue how new cards would affect the environment. New mechanics like Focused Attacks, Endurance, and Defense Shields were constantly being brought out. The quality of the art on the cards was fantastic.

Pan Z on the other hand started off looking really promising. New rules aimed at nerfing MPPV, and Dragonball Victory. But with Pan Z virtually all the lessons learned from Score Z days were forgotten. In Score Z we learned that hand advantage was broken, but let Black have x3 Devious Drill in Pan Z. In Score Z we learned that cards with OP effects needed to be banish after use, but in Pan Z Disk just went to the graveyard. In Score Z we learned that too many combat ending cards made for a boring game, but in Pan Z you could fit 9 psuedo-combat-ending cards in a little 60 card deck easily. In Score Z we went from laughable MP powers in the Saiyan Saga to useful and interesting powers starting in the Cell Saga. In Pan Z MP powers pretty much stuck to the awfulness of the Trunks Saga. Until set 6 happened that is.

 

The Score Z devs had no clue what they were doing, but it was their main job, and they put a lot of real hard work into it. The Pan Z devs just designed cards as a side gig apart from their real jobs. 

Did Pan Z ruin the game? No, Pan Z ended as a broken mess, but it was salvageable. When Fan Z came along adding even more brokenness, refusing to fix anything, and splitting the community, that's when the game was ruined. 

Nerf Devious, Enraged, Drawku, Retribution, and Ascension. Limit Unleashed to 1 per deck. Ban Awakening Cell. Now the metagame is healthy and interesting again. 

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I think since it's no longer officially supported and there's fewer events  people are just taking their time more than before. I'm still into the game. I just don't give it as much time as I used to. Besides there's always a lull near the end of a set. 

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14 hours ago, Jaith1 said:

 

Once dbsuper card ass fails, we can do some sort of kickstarter and truly do it perfect.

really annoying ppl assume a game will fail before it even get's released, I think most of the hate has nothing to do with the game but because ppl blame it for the death of panz, which I believe the main fault goes to panini not willing to put out more money to keep there operations going.  Even if Bandai forced this to shut it down(which I don't believe) I would not blame them at all, it's a smart business move everyone here would do the same if they were in that position. 

 

anyway I never wish the failure of another game, I know how it fells when a game you invested time in gets canceled ( multiple times) it sucks.

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15 hours ago, soviet prince said:

really annoying ppl assume a game will fail before it even get's released, I think most of the hate has nothing to do with the game but because ppl blame it for the death of panz, which I believe the main fault goes to panini not willing to put out more money to keep there operations going.  Even if Bandai forced this to shut it down(which I don't believe) I would not blame them at all, it's a smart business move everyone here would do the same if they were in that position. 

 

anyway I never wish the failure of another game, I know how it fells when a game you invested time in gets canceled ( multiple times) it sucks.

 
 

It's a little ironic when someone makes assumptions about another's assumptions while being upset about assumptions. Bandai has a bad track record. I expect it to fail because of measurable patterns. I expect the same results for MetaX based on measurable patterns. A lot of people have come to these ideas based on record. It would help your argument if you held yourself to the same standards you wish others would hold themselves to.

With that said, I don't wish either game to finish, but I can look at the patterns the two companies have set and know better than to give either of them more of my money.

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naruto lasted 20+ sets which is great for an anime type game and I do hold myself to the same standards you state like it's fact it will fail and you don't know that for a fact.

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5 hours ago, soviet prince said:

naruto lasted 20+ sets which is great for an anime type game and I do hold myself to the same standards you state like it's fact it will fail and you don't know that for a fact.

 
 

You're doing it again. Making assumptions about assumptions. I said I expect it to and did not push it as fact. It's my opinion about the situation. Naruto was successful and no one has denied that. However, it can easily be argued that its success was due to IP. While the game can be fun it was handled poorly at times and there were many valid complaints from consumers that went unheeded through the course of its lifespan. However, I can name 4 CCG cash grabs, 3 of which came after Naruto and an LCG that came after Naruto off the top of my head that was all badly done cash grabs. Being that these are more recent than their 1 successful game, they become the pillar of which you base the pattern. Statistically speaking, DBZS by Bandai has low odds for proper support and success. 

I also apply the same logic to MetaX. PanZ was a cash grab from hell. Poor marketing... shit... no marketing, poor customer service, employees running rampant on social media, horrible pull rates on UR's, UR's that became staples in every deck and the list goes on. Now you have Afterworld which follows the same marketing strategy. No one knows of it except a very small group and they make almost no effort to promote and support it. In my book, Afterworld is a failed game. If you include ScoreZ under their belt that leaves you with 1/3 games being successful and they are exhibiting the same patterns with this game that they had with PanZ. The chances of them successfully supporting this game are not on their side. I won't be giving either company my money. 

Both Bandai and Panini have odds that are stacked against them. It isn't mean, dumb, or ignorant to choose not to support them given the numbers. It isn't bad or mean for people like me to advise others of their recent mistakes, none of which have been rectified. It is, however, ignorant of you to assume other's intent and lump people together in a sinking boat. When I talk about Bandai or Panini and their ability to make decisions that negatively impact consumers, it's based on experience and measurable evidence. I do it so that others can make more informed choices. Believe it or not, many people have never dealt with either company and they should know about their recent endeavors before investing large amounts of time and money.

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17 hours ago, Majin Goo said:

You're doing it again. Making assumptions about assumptions. I said I expect it to and did not push it as fact. It's my opinion about the situation. Naruto was successful and no one has denied that. However, it can easily be argued that its success was due to IP. While the game can be fun it was handled poorly at times and there were many valid complaints from consumers that went unheeded through the course of its lifespan. However, I can name 4 CCG cash grabs, 3 of which came after Naruto and an LCG that came after Naruto off the top of my head that was all badly done cash grabs. Being that these are more recent than their 1 successful game, they become the pillar of which you base the pattern. Statistically speaking, DBZS by Bandai has low odds for proper support and success. 

I also apply the same logic to MetaX. PanZ was a cash grab from hell. Poor marketing... shit... no marketing, poor customer service, employees running rampant on social media, horrible pull rates on UR's, UR's that became staples in every deck and the list goes on. Now you have Afterworld which follows the same marketing strategy. No one knows of it except a very small group and they make almost no effort to promote and support it. In my book, Afterworld is a failed game. If you include ScoreZ under their belt that leaves you with 1/3 games being successful and they are exhibiting the same patterns with this game that they had with PanZ. The chances of them successfully supporting this game are not on their side. I won't be giving either company my money. 

Both Bandai and Panini have odds that are stacked against them. It isn't mean, dumb, or ignorant to choose not to support them given the numbers. It isn't bad or mean for people like me to advise others of their recent mistakes, none of which have been rectified. It is, however, ignorant of you to assume other's intent and lump people together in a sinking boat. When I talk about Bandai or Panini and their ability to make decisions that negatively impact consumers, it's based on experience and measurable evidence. I do it so that others can make more informed choices. Believe it or not, many people have never dealt with either company and they should know about their recent endeavors before investing large amounts of time and money.

mistaken you for another member who I originally quoted. 

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10 hours ago, soviet prince said:

mistaken you for another member who I originally quoted. 

In that case I redact my first paragraph. 

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PanZ was DEFINITELY a more balanced game than Score Z (although that isn't saying much) but it suffered HEAVILY from lack of testing, corporate oversight, and obvious balance problems being completely ignored.

It is almost like all of Scores's problems came from WITHIN the game itself and all of PanZ's problems came from the outside, independent of the actual game itself.

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On 5/15/2017 at 9:29 AM, LeluGhost said:

I didn't trust Panini the entire time.  I sure as hell won't trust anyone else trying to capitalize on the DBZ license.

 

I tried to save people from Panini but no one listened and turned against me  (leading to the birth of Dark Edison)

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On 5/13/2017 at 0:03 PM, Jaith1 said:

 

Once dbsuper card ass fails, we can do some sort of kickstarter and truly do it perfect.

The game has been fucked up by multiple teams.  What makes you think anyone else here could do better?

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5 hours ago, Edison Carasio said:

The game has been fucked up by multiple teams.  What makes you think anyone else here could do better?

We could always pay you to do it lol.

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I don't think the mechanics and existence of PanZ hurt the game in the long run.  However, in my eyes, the way the game was handled has.  Early on we were told that they DON'T want to have a large ban list or errata book like Score did.  This was both a blessing and a curse.  They were so averse to fixes they didn't want to do ANYTHING.  They just tried to print something in the next set that would hopefully straighten everything out.  There were several problems each set with little attention given to solving them until at least 2-3 sets later.

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16 minutes ago, Stryyder said:

I don't think the mechanics and existence of PanZ hurt the game in the long run.  However, in my eyes, the way the game was handled has.  Early on we were told that they DON'T want to have a large ban list or errata book like Score did.  This was both a blessing and a curse.  They were so averse to fixes they didn't want to do ANYTHING.  They just tried to print something in the next set that would hopefully straighten everything out.  There were several problems each set with little attention given to solving them until at least 2-3 sets later.

Proper play testing would have fixed most of that. There rules for banning cards was ignorant and put them in a bad spot with Unleashed. Making MRP versions of errata'd cards was a great idea. Not dating the part saying MRP was stupid and making them promos not easily obtained was lemming level stupid. 

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