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SirCod

This game has way too much endurance.

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There is too much endurance in this game, and it has been ruining it from the start. Control decks want to mitigate damage, while slowly whittling their opponents down. Endurance helps with that. MPPV decks don't want to suffer critical damage, and endurance helps with that too. Captain Ginyu would have been a lot easier to deal with, in the early environment, if there wasn't enough endurance in Orange and Blue to choke a horse. Maybe Namekian Knowledge wouldn't have required an errata. 

I think every card with endurance should be lowered by one. Cards with three endurance should only have two endurance. Cards with two endurance should only have one endurance, and so on. 

 

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Endurance is a double edged sword imo.

When in the scenarios you're describing, yes, it's a problem, I agree, but it's a sight for sore eyes vs beat down doing 9+ damage a strike. I don't even think that's an unimaginable height either, it's fairly standard when they're at 0.

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6 hours ago, Artificial Human said:

Endurance is a double edged sword imo.

When in the scenarios you're describing, yes, it's a problem, I agree, but it's a sight for sore eyes vs beat down doing 9+ damage a strike. I don't even think that's an unimaginable height either, it's fairly standard when they're at 0.

Are you kidding me? If a physical attack can't do theoretical damage of 10 or more life, I don't even put it in the deck. Not unless it has an epic secondary effect like Blue Betrayal. 

As the game stands right now, I think at least a little endurance should be skimmed off from somewhere. At the very least pick a few choice cards and reduce the endurance on them.  Namekian Cell can easily run 30+ blocks, and win via attrition. MPPV decks are too lightning fast with Orange and Red. 

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8 hours ago, SirCod said:

Are you kidding me? If a physical attack can't do theoretical damage of 10 or more life, I don't even put it in the deck. Not unless it has an epic secondary effect like Blue Betrayal. 

As the game stands right now, I think at least a little endurance should be skimmed off from somewhere. At the very least pick a few choice cards and reduce the endurance on them.  Namekian Cell can easily run 30+ blocks, and win via attrition. MPPV decks are too lightning fast with Orange and Red. 

Physical attacks have been doing an average of 8 stages and/or 6 life cards since set 1.  Energy attacks do an average of 8 life cards.  These high damages make big  endurance a much needed item.  

Namekian's problem is Knowledge Mastery coming back.  Mppv can be countered with the right draws or deck building.  

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1 hour ago, ChangelingBard said:

Physical attacks have been doing an average of 8 stages and/or 6 life cards since set 1.  Energy attacks do an average of 8 life cards.  These high damages make big  endurance a much needed item.  

Namekian's problem is Knowledge Mastery coming back.  Mppv can be countered with the right draws or deck building.  

Anything can be countered with the right draws or deckbuilding. But can it be countered consistently? Also, why settle for an environment in which Wallbreaker and Ball 2 are staples outside of Blue? 

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1 hour ago, SirCod said:

Anything can be countered with the right draws or deckbuilding. But can it be countered consistently? Also, why settle for an environment in which Wallbreaker and Ball 2 are staples outside of Blue? 

Those have always been staples.

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1 hour ago, ChangelingBard said:

Those have always been staples.

No they haven't. Tons of decks have made top cut in the past without running those cards. 

Also, why have entire matches decided on whether or not you lucksack and draw wallbreaker at the right time? That's just as bad as seeing who is the first to draw Unleashed. Games should be decided on strategy, not whether you happened to draw a single game changing OP card. 

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12 minutes ago, SirCod said:

No they haven't. Tons of decks have made top cut in the past without running those cards. 

Also, why have entire matches decided on whether or not you lucksack and draw wallbreaker at the right time? That's just as bad as seeing who is the first to draw Unleashed. Games should be decided on strategy, not whether you happened to draw a single game changing OP card. 

I'm guessing you didn't follow top decks when the game was alive if you don't believe wallbreaker or ball 2 were staples. 

 

The whole game is luck based, every card game is.  You can have a semblance of a strategy but it all depends on the draw in the end.

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Ball 2 was a major contender from the get go. It hurt MPPV and auto level decks. Orange20 for example. It always hurt to get deleveled because I needed those devouring drills to level. It hurt ginyu mid game when he wanted to pull allys via discard. And of course the set 6 MPs all wanted to level

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Ball 2 was a great contender, but was a double-edged sword.  most decks would run it if they just camped on 1.  MPPV decks rarely used it, because it being stolen hurt their wincon.  Unleashed decks MIGHT run it, prior to the BAU errata, some are fast enough still they could run it without worry.

Wallbreaker, on the other hand, lost its usefulness after set 4 or 5.  Between cards that just work around it (Unleashed) or cards that just made it worthless (Red Shoulder Grab) and the fact the attack on it was jank, there were plenty of other options to hurt leveling.  I remember seeing it still being played a couple times toward the end, but never to good effect.  it either sat impotently on the table or immediately got banished.

 

As to the topic at hand, I will actually agree.  Early ScoreZ had no endurance.  You had smaller moderate attacks, making PL and modifiers much more important if you wanted to get a crit.  The way it is in PanZ, your crit is based on your opponent's endurance curve.  I would much rather hit small attacks consistently and work at getting damage output high enough to crit (skill based) than for everything to be a gamble based on if my opponent top decks enough endurance (luck based).

If we dump endurance by a certain factor or even get rid of it altogether, as well as drop printed damage considerably, it would probably have been a better game, IMO.

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4 hours ago, ChangelingBard said:

I'm guessing you didn't follow top decks when the game was alive if you don't believe wallbreaker or ball 2 were staples. 

 

The whole game is luck based, every card game is.  You can have a semblance of a strategy but it all depends on the draw in the end.

I really shouldn't have to go and dig up old lists of top cut decks to prove that WB and Ball 2 were not staples. Half the top cut decks either didn't run WB or didn't run ball 2. Most of the ones that ran ball 2 were either Namekian, Krillin, or just going for a DBV on the side. 

The game is luck based, so we should just introduce extremely swingy cards that decide the entire match? Ok then. Here's my new card for DBZ. 

Name: You win! 

Event

Power: You win the game!

Now entire games can be decided on who draws this first. It'll feel about the same as playing MPPV decks vs non-blue decks. Also, Spheres will go even further up in price. 

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2 hours ago, Stryyder said:

Ball 2 was a great contender, but was a double-edged sword.  most decks would run it if they just camped on 1.  MPPV decks rarely used it, because it being stolen hurt their wincon.  Unleashed decks MIGHT run it, prior to the BAU errata, some are fast enough still they could run it without worry.

Wallbreaker, on the other hand, lost its usefulness after set 4 or 5.  Between cards that just work around it (Unleashed) or cards that just made it worthless (Red Shoulder Grab) and the fact the attack on it was jank, there were plenty of other options to hurt leveling.  I remember seeing it still being played a couple times toward the end, but never to good effect.  it either sat impotently on the table or immediately got banished.

 

As to the topic at hand, I will actually agree.  Early ScoreZ had no endurance.  You had smaller moderate attacks, making PL and modifiers much more important if you wanted to get a crit.  The way it is in PanZ, your crit is based on your opponent's endurance curve.  I would much rather hit small attacks consistently and work at getting damage output high enough to crit (skill based) than for everything to be a gamble based on if my opponent top decks enough endurance (luck based).

If we dump endurance by a certain factor or even get rid of it altogether, as well as drop printed damage considerably, it would probably have been a better game, IMO.

That would be a lot better. Oh I landed an energy for 5, or a physical for 8 and it has a 75% chance of not topdecking endurance? Finally!

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2 hours ago, SirCod said:

I really shouldn't have to go and dig up old lists of top cut decks to prove that WB and Ball 2 were not staples. Half the top cut decks either didn't run WB or didn't run ball 2. Most of the ones that ran ball 2 were either Namekian, Krillin, or just going for a DBV on the side. 

The game is luck based, so we should just introduce extremely swingy cards that decide the entire match? Ok then. Here's my new card for DBZ. 

Name: You win! 

Event

Power: You win the game!

Now entire games can be decided on who draws this first. It'll feel about the same as playing MPPV decks vs non-blue decks. Also, Spheres will go even further up in price. 

You did it.  You made a post that makes no sense as to what I said and completely off your own topic.  +2 points for you.

As for endurance, try playing without it or with it reduced.  It's the only real way to test your theory out.  As someone who played in ScoreZ when it didn't have endurance, let me tell you it was shit for everyone.

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1 hour ago, ChangelingBard said:

You did it.  You made a post that makes no sense as to what I said and completely off your own topic.  +2 points for you.

As for endurance, try playing without it or with it reduced.  It's the only real way to test your theory out.  As someone who played in ScoreZ when it didn't have endurance, let me tell you it was shit for everyone.

Yeah it would need to be tested for sure. My point was that power creep has a bad effect on games. Eventually cards get so powerful that entire games are won before the unlucky player has a chance to react. When a game isn't power creeped games take time to win, and strategy becomes more important. When a game is power creeped we have a lot of instances of winning on the first turn like Yu Gi Oh. The opposite can happen too. When cards are too weak games can take over an hour. 

I also played Score Z. Endurance was an answer to the power creeping of attacks in that game. At the end of Score Z a Red CS Kid Buu deck could easily deal 16 life just from a standard AT +3 attack, thanks to Red Thunder Clap. But here's the thing. Pan Z attacks started out extremely tame, but the level of endurance was the same as the end of Score Z. The result was that the only MP standing a chance at traditional survival was Ginyu. It took until set 6 to correct that mistake. And even after all that the best deck was a Red Cooler control.

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15 hours ago, SirCod said:

I really shouldn't have to go and dig up old lists of top cut decks to prove that WB and Ball 2 were not staples. Half the top cut decks either didn't run WB or didn't run ball 2. Most of the ones that ran ball 2 were either Namekian, Krillin, or just going for a DBV on the side. 

The game is luck based, so we should just introduce extremely swingy cards that decide the entire match? Ok then. Here's my new card for DBZ. 

Name: You win! 

Event

Power: You win the game!

Now entire games can be decided on who draws this first. It'll feel about the same as playing MPPV decks vs non-blue decks. Also, Spheres will go even further up in price. 

They basically made this card already, it's called Unleashed.

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