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Denithan

The Metamoran Fusion Dance

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This is just a really random thought that has nothing to do with any card game, but I'm kind of growing fond of the Top Tier community so I thought I'd express it.

So, just to establish where my thoughts are, I want to put out there that the part of the Dragon Ball community I was exposed to always worked on the theory that the fusion dance and potara earrings functioned by effectively adding the totals of their contemporaries' powers. So in effect, Goku's maximum + Vegeta's maximum = Vegito, while Gogeta was limited to Goku's weakened state to match Vegeta's base power level, and it just kind of hit me that this is almost definitely false.

Now its a bit hard to really establish with Vegito, since his power could very well be the sum of his counterparts and he would still work within his narrative. Since our only real examples of potara are Fused Zamasu, Kibito Kai and Vegito, it's really hard to say how the earrings work since the former 2 were kind of amalgamations of their sums, so I'm not really going to touch on potara too heavily. If nothing else, Fused Zamasu (in the anime) appeared to be a lot stronger than just Goku Black with Zamasu's power and immortality added on, though I straight can't say that about the manga counterpart since he was matched by Mastered Super Saiyan Blue Goku. Anyway, this is all beside the point;

What kind of shoves an iron pipe up this interpretations ass is Gotenks (and to a lesser extent, Gogeta). Just to be blunt, neither Goten or Trunks could turn Super Saiyan 2, and both were notably weak compared to other cast characters (each being significantly weaker than Android 18); yet Gotenks was able to achieve Super Saiyan 3 consistently and, by the movies, quite easily. Beyond that, his base level of Super Saiyan was such that he could survive an encounter with Majin Buu, something neither material could hope to achieve. Likewise, by the time Gogeta's fusion happens in Fusion Reborn, Goku and Vegeta have been exhausted by Janemba to the point of barely being able to fight but the fusion was easily one of the strongest things we'd seen. Enough so to utterly overwhelm an entity that Super Saiyan 3 Goku had been decimated by.

Anyway, not really going anywhere with this thought. Just felt like putting it down somewhere.

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Have some more fusion-related random thoughts.

Old Kai was a fusion with random witch too. Not that that tells us anything because Supreme Kais are inherently terrible when it comes to fighting relative to the Saiyans and their God of Destruction counterparts.

The Vegito being stronger than Gogeta thing comes solely from things Old Kai said. That the earrings produce a more effective fusion and Goku/Vegeta being rivals makes the fusion more complete. However, we don't know any such details about the dance as Goku's the only one who knew it and didn't make these comments. I think the only benefit of the Potara at the time was the lack of a time limit (a huge advantage) and one of the participants didn't have to power down which may affect the result. Gogeta probably could've defeated Super Buu if that option was viable. Thanks to Super's lousy writers and their penchant for spitting on lore, both methods have a time limit now so they're as bad as each other unless you buy into Vegito being stronger.

You can always try a Super Buu (Gohan) vs Janemba debate which would be difficult. If Janemba is stronger than that Buu and Gogeta defeated Janemba instantly, maybe Gogeta's stronger?

In Super, Goku and Vegeta were pretty beat before they fused as well. I suppose the fusion arrives fresh regardless of the condition of the materials. However, when they defuse, they revert to whatever shape they were in before fusing. On another note, there was no reason in Super for Vegito to have his standard outfit as Vegeta was wearing his Saiyan armor instead of his Buu Saga outfit.

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36 minutes ago, Mysterious Youth said:

The Vegito being stronger than Gogeta thing comes solely from things Old Kai said. That the earrings produce a more effective fusion and Goku/Vegeta being rivals makes the fusion more complete. However, we don't know any such details about the dance as Goku's the only one who knew it and didn't make these comments. I think the only benefit of the Potara at the time was the lack of a time limit (a huge advantage) and one of the participants didn't have to power down which may affect the result. Gogeta probably could've defeated Super Buu if that option was viable. Thanks to Super's lousy writers and their penchant for spitting on lore, both methods have a time limit now so they're as bad as each other unless you buy into Vegito being stronger.

You can always try a Super Buu (Gohan) vs Janemba debate which would be difficult. If Janemba is stronger than that Buu and Gogeta defeated Janemba instantly, maybe Gogeta's stronger?

In Super, Goku and Vegeta were pretty beat before they fused as well. I suppose the fusion arrives fresh regardless of the condition of the materials. However, when they defuse, they revert to whatever shape they were in before fusing. On another note, there was no reason in Super for Vegito to have his standard outfit as Vegeta was wearing his Saiyan armor instead of his Buu Saga outfit.

Just highlighting that comment about the earrings producing a more effective fusion, since I decided to rewatch that and took hold of that as well. Old Kai doesn't expressly say its stronger, and in fact, he seems to be lacking some giant chunks of knowledge regarding either of the fusion methods. Beyond that, there are a number of ways to interpret the statement; it could be more effective because it lasts longer (eternal or an hour if you're talking Z or Super respectfully), the lack of initial set-up required to learn, practice and then use the dance, or as the fandom understood it, it just being an all-around stronger version. Personally, I kind of think the first two points were what was intended, just because of how much stronger Gotenks is next to Goten and Trunks together.

Also, I kind of like how some of the games have addressed Janemba and Buuhan when comparing them to each-other, where Janemba's power is directly based on the amount of malice/souls in hell where Buuhan has kind of an established level. It doesn't really declare either as stronger, or more dangerous, but it does establish them as very different threats (also, any and all interactions between Buu and Janemba are hilarious).

I think we were all disappointed that Vegito Blue turned out identical to how he was in Z |: But I thought Goku and Vegeta had to be restored before fusing into Vegito? I know in the manga, Vegito eats a Senzu Bean almost immediately after coming into creation just to restore himself to max because they'd passed their exhaustion onto him.

A final thought, and one I've been sat on for a long time, is the difference in how Vegito and Gogeta seem to identify. Rereading the manga chapters with Vegito in it, and comparing it to Gogeta's appearances in Fusion Reborn and GT (as well as Gotenks), it appears that metamoran fusions tend to identify more as individuals than their potara counterparts (excluding situations where one personality is completely wiped out, like with Kibito or the Witch). An example of this is in how Gotenks and Gogeta both came into existence with a clear handle on their own names and personalities, where Vegito actively stops and his opening lines are just him figuring out his own name, and trying to congeal the two personalities within. This could also be a problem because Goku and Vegeta were pretty equally stubborn in personality, so Vegito didn't have a clear dominant personality, but the point remains that he was aware of Goku and Vegeta a hell of a lot more than Gogeta was, and more than Gotenks knew about Goten and Trunks (for anyone confused, Gogeta and Gotenks use identifiers like "I" more than they use "us", where Vegito starts with plural and [in the anime] moves to singular).

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It's why I italicized effective. As you seem to know, so many people tend to take effective as stronger, but effective can mean a lot of things. At face value and with what's presented, the lack of a time limit and not needing to learn the dance which requires A LOT of time and perfect synchronization makes Potara fusions the less troublesome method. That's what I subscribe to. The only drawback at the time was the fusion is permanent. Thanks to bad writing giving the Potara a time limit, there's 0 reason not to use them over the dance. It seems we'll never get Gogeta in Super. Vegeta's unwillingness aside, why would they ever take time to practice the dance? I guess for when they don't have the Potara, but the two are so against fusion at this point, I wouldn't count on Gogeta's first canon appearance short of another alternate timeline where the two are friends again.

I was going off the Super anime in that Goku and Vegeta didn't heal and I don't recall Vegito using a bean after fusing. I could be wrong. Then again, after Gotenks' first encounter with Fat Buu where he got beat up, Trunks and Goten were beat up after defusing. Then again again, in Fusion Reborn Goku and Vegeta were clearly in bad shape, but Gogeta was definitely mint.

I really wish we got more screentime/characterization from Gogeta in Fusion Reborn. He was only in it for maybe two minutes. Don't get me wrong. That scene was awesome but considering the whole movie was leading up to that, I wanted it to be longer. While Gogeta in GT was awesome in his own right, I don't know what happened with the shift in personality. Goku's personality suddenly became really prominent but he was completely absent in Fusion Reborn. I've heard the argument that Gogeta was playing around waiting for Omega to use the Negative Karma Ball so he can change it to positive energy. Vegito was stalling as well but we didn't see much playfulness. Maybe all of a sudden the writers wanted Gogeta to be more like Goku to differentiate the fusions further?

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One argument I've heard for the major distinction in personality between Super Gogeta and Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta is the huge difference in power between the two states. Saiyans tend to get more and more arrogant the more powerful they get, Goku included in the statement, and Omega Shenron was straight up not a threat to the fusion at that point while it wasn't really established if Gogeta had actually overwhelmed Janemba, or was just using Janemba's energy to do damage (as his dialogue hinted).

I also think part of it is the difference in Goku's character between Z and Super tbh, which is kind of nice to see reflected in the fusion. In Z, Goku was much more willing to take a fight seriously and contest himself against his opponent's. Even when overwhelming Buu, or even characters like Recoome, he wasn't as playful as he had been back in Dragon Ball, while GT kind of altered Goku's personality (much to my chagrin) to display more Dragon Ball characteristics as he toyed with and deliberately mocked Cell and Frieza.

I'm 100% in agreement in that I wish Gogeta had more screen time though. His scene was cool, undoubtedly, but it's not enough to really base any solid opinion on.
Side note, I was kind of annoyed that we didn't get to see Gogeta Blue in the manga instead of Vegito Blue. Functionally, either fusion could've done the role, and Vegeta has displayed knowledge of the fusion dance before (stating that he'd never perform it in the Buu Saga), alluding to the idea that he knows about the dance and how to do it. If they follow that along, there's grounds for them to perform the fusion (but they better damn well explain what happened the first time).

Also, fun fact that I didn't know until just now, apparently Weekly Shonen Jump declared that Gogeta was the stronger of the two fusions but was less effective because of the limited time.

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I've heard that argument as well, but short of a few taunts in the anime, Vegito was all business. Short of Buu's dimensional scream, he stood no chance against Vegito so the conditions are the same. Perhaps the disparity between Gogeta and Omega was that much different than the one between Vegito and Buu. Also, I do recall GT Goku being pretty cocky when he could be. So in the context of GT, I suppose Gogeta's behavior is no foul and him displaying a trait of one of his materials is a fine idea.

I had my doubts about seeing Goku and Vegeta fuse in Super due to their characters being so out of whack. It really irritated me in Battle of Gods when he told Beerus he didn't like using Super Saiyan God because it wasn't his own power. In Z and especially the movies, he relies on people all the time be it the Spirit Bomb or fusion and he never performs either reluctantly. Vegeta's "You are the best/number one." speech during Kid Buu was the best outcome for the character the series could end on. Now Vegeta's reverted for no reason except he has to because new series and munny.

I was hoping for Gogeta in Super too, but knowing/seeing the dance is different from being able to perform it properly. It really seems like something you have to practice and the worst part is if you screw up you're punished with a useless form. You have to be able to do it 100% perfectly like Goten and Trunks or else it's just not ideal for battle. I'm afraid until it's brought up that Vegeta is on the kids' level with the dance, Vegito's the best we'll get IF we ever see him again with how these two are written now. All things considered, a canon Gogeta just doesn't seem likely unless we get one from an alternate timeline's future.

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To be honest, I do think Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta mainly differed from Super Gogeta based on the difference in Goku's character, so it might be worthwhile to address them as two completely succinct entities with the same origin.

I actually didn't mind the Battle of Gods angle too much on a personal level, with Goku disliking that he had to rely on others to achieve that level of power. There was always a reluctance in his character to use things like the Spirit Bomb (outside of the movies, which kind of warped Goku's character a bit for the sake of narrative) which relied on others' powers, normally with Goku being forced to that conclusion after getting a hell of a beat-down. Probably the one time we saw Goku properly suck up his pride throughout Z and outright rely on others was with Frieza, and even then, it came after he had been utterly exhausted past his breaking limits. After Super Saiyan, he definitely became a much more arrogant character (which is fitting, since Super Saiyan is meant to drag out those more Saiyan characteristics), and it wasn't until Full-Powered Super Saiyan removed those negative traits that Goku was willing to rely on others again. Even then, Goku got really arrogant again by the time of the Buu Saga thanks to SS2 and 3, which enabled like 90% of the Buu Saga regardless of if you read the manga, watched the dub, or watched the sub.
Probably the biggest hindrance to Goku's statements about disliking the power would be his willingness to make use of fusion, but even that was always a bit iffy in the canon/manga (with him immediately saying it wasn't needed the second Gotenks' fusion wore off, and being perfectly happy to discard the earrings as soon as the option was available). I think the big difference between Super Saiyan God and the Spirit Bomb/fusion though was always context. Goku didn't actively feel threatened by Beerus until towards the end of the fight. He'd gone into it as a friendly spar, and his dialogue was much more based around a rivalry than actually being enemies. Goku straight up couldn't match Beerus on his own, which had never really happened to him before. He could somewhat fight Vegeta, Frieza, Cell and Buu as equals, and had never had to rely on things like the Spirit Bomb to keep up. Relying on others was always 100% a last resort after all other options were exhausted, not the primary reason he could fight, and I always took that as being why he wasn't too pleased about Super Saiyan God.

As for Vegeta, I don't necessarily think his character's been reverted in full to what it was before. In Super, he's been very open and willing to admit that Goku is the superior of the two of them (in both anime and manga), but he's also still trying to keep up and rival his power which is consistent from him in Z's final chapters following Kid Buu. where he's still 100% good to go against Goku and still training non-stop (while abusing Goku). He's shown his pride against people who aren't Goku, such as with Goku Black, or people who have personal history with him, but I've not actually seen that previous arrogance/hatred of his in the new series? Most he's really done is bicker with Goku when Goku trains on his own. On the other hand, he has also really grown in terms of no longer taking enemy's for granted. With Frieza, Cell and Buu, Vegeta kind of just let them do what they wanted because of that arrogance, but he wiped out Golden Frieza immediately, took Frost out without leaving any openings, was guarded and flat overwhelmed by Hit, and straight away went for the kill against Goku Black. Outside of Super's fillers, Vegeta seems to be taking things much more seriously now (100% expecting this tournament to let me down though).

Also probably worth noting is that Vegito Blue wasn't exactly the same as the original Vegito. He had the occasional oddball moment where he showed some more of Goku's current arrogance, but he also came up as a much more diligent combatant. I'd like to say that this is because Fused Zamasu was around his equal, but even in the manga where he utterly outclassed Fused Zamasu, he didn't really kid around, or waste time. He actually displayed a lot of Vegeta's new-found maturity, where he's not willing to let his guard down and is much more prone to just killing the enemy.

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What Goku said in Battle of Gods irked me in that he's never really said something like that when using the Spirit Bomb or fusion. Those aren't usually his go-to options, but before he does them, he doesn't take time to say he'll regret doing so. It can be interpreted that way, but I didn't like him outright saying it and foreshadowing how irrelevant the others are and will continue to be as Goku hogs the spotlight.

The earrings I give him a pass on. When Gotenks defused in Buu, Gohan could take him so while fusing would've been a more guaranteed victory I don't think Goku or Gohan would've liked to fuse permanently if they didn't have to. After Vegito defused, Vegeta crushed the earring and Goku got mad because he felt they would've needed it after rescuing the others which is the smart and appropriate response. Against Kid Buu, crushing the earrings is in line with my Goku issues.

I'll agree that Vegeta is more serious in Super, but he's more standoffish towards Goku than I thought he would be after his Kid Buu speech. I don't mind that Vegeta's still training. It's that his rivalry is back and his interactions with Goku aren't any different. A lot of my problems with Vegeta come from the Goku Black arc of the anime. Even though Future Trunks' world is at stake, Goku and Vegeta refuse to fight together because status quo. I thought Vegeta would do so for his future son, but apparently not. This mindset from the two of them is why I thought we'd never see a fusion in Super and probably why they had to make so many trips to the future and drag out the arc. I thought the point of showing Zamasu and Black fighting in tandem was supposed to have our guys do the same which didn't happen until the very end with Vegito. Same with Resurrection 'F' and Whis commenting that if the two fight together, they'd be quite a force but that's not the lesson of the movie and nobody learns anything because status quo.

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I can respect disliking his comment, honestly. As I said before, I think the main difference for me was mostly in terms of the context, where Goku had to rely on those powers to be able to tank more than a single flick from Beerus. Using others' powers as a last resort is one thing, it's something else when you have to use their power to fight at all.

To be honest, I think the fandom put a bit too much weight in the Kid Buu speech. It was an incredible speech, and it showed a lot of respect from Vegeta, but even in the build-up to Uub, Vegeta openly comments on how he thinks Goku's an idiot and is just a prick to him. For that reason, I took the speech to be Vegeta respecting Goku as a fighter,  but still finding him incredibly irritating/aggravating.

My main issue with Super has more lain in how stupid Goku has been (at least in the anime) more than how standoffish Vegeta is. Goku's had a lot of his foolish actions exaggerated, and it would be one thing if they were filler, or just off-hand jokes, but they've been huge plot points like forgetting the senzu beans and nearly getting them all killed. Vegeta is in his right to be standoffish in this context. I wouldn't want to fuse with that either xD
Also, this isn't to say that Super's writing is good. I really dislike the anime's writing, and while I really like the manga, I do hate how Goku-centric it is so far. I prefer Mastered Super Saiyan Blue to Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken (which just felt like a bit much to me), but Goku going toe to toe with Fused Zamasu on his own just invalidates Vegeta's character.

Resurrection "F"'s comments about them working together felt like foreshadowing for a future villain to me, tbh. I didn't see it happening with Frieza just because of how arrogant Frieza was, and the implication therein that Frieza is on par with Beerus just being REALLY far-fetched. Frieza's 6 months of training being enough to close the gap between "not able to stand up to Super Saiyan Goku (Namek) and Super Saiyan Blue" was dumb enough on its own. |: Especially when they very easily could've argued that Babidi had just awoken his potential like Old Kai awoke Gohan's. But I relent.
I do agree though. The Goku Black arc didn't need to be as dragged out as it was, and it wasn't handled the best. I find it about as aggravating in hindsight as Vegeta seems to find Goku.

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In the anime after Kid Buu died, Goku gave a thumbs up and Vegeta gave one back. In the dub the two shared a laugh as well. I think the speech was Vegeta's ultimate payoff but to see not much of a change in his interactions afterward was what bothered me. I guess it was too much to expect of him?

At least from my perspective, Vegeta is for the most part consistent in Super? Goku's consistent too. Consistently horrible. Goku's definitely done some stupid things in Z, but I don't think he's ever been this unlikable and stupid. I've seen people say he's not a good guy and whatnot, but I could still find things I liked about him in Z and especially Dragon Ball.

The Super anime's pretty horrendous and clearly meant to milk the franchise with how disgustingly long the Goku Black and recruitment arcs were and starting it off by doing two 10+ episode arcs retelling two movies worse with bad filler shoved in. GT got whatever it wanted to get done in 64 episodes. Super is well within its rights to go beyond that of course, but when I consider the content of these almost 100 episodes, this is not something to be proud of. Then again, there's people who love the Super anime to death and think it's better than Z. They don't care that it's stupid because they're overjoyed that DRAGON BALL'S BACK!!!

Even if Resurrection 'F' was foreshadowing a future villain, unless it was the two fusing against Zamasu/Black or even if it's going to be this tournament, the comments were so long ago the payoff won't seem worth it. Even if it's brought up now, I don't know if I'd care. Maybe it was just be an offhand comment that has no payoff because it's out of character for Goku and Vegeta and the writers hate that.

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48 minutes ago, Mysterious Youth said:

Even if Resurrection 'F' was foreshadowing a future villain, unless it was the two fusing against Zamasu/Black or even if it's going to be this tournament, the comments were so long ago the payoff won't seem worth it. Even if it's brought up now, I don't know if I'd care. Maybe it was just be an offhand comment that has no payoff because it's out of character for Goku and Vegeta and the writers hate that.

I'm just going to respond to this point first because I actually hope we get another Dragon Ball Z film, even if it's just another rehash of the Goku Black arc. I'm pretty okay with the idea of having the anime, the manga and the films all do different interpretations of the same arcs so long as the films maintain a higher quality. At that point, I can live with Super just being spoilers for the other two since it is easily the lowest quality of the three. We'll need to wait and see though, since this Broly movie is certainly far from canon (though it does depict them both working together, and fusing into Gogeta. God damnit.)

Goku not being a hero and Goku being an idiot are two different discussions. A major argument to defend him being so stupid is how he was in Dragon Ball, the original manga/anime, but the big issue with that argument is that Goku was 12 in that. He's now in his mid-40s to early 50s, so that argument is just ridiculous. That said, of course, Super is much more consistently drawn than Z's anime was (and from that perspective is better), and much more fanservice-based, so it'll attract certain audiences more than the previous series did.

Honestly, I will say that I am loving having a new Dragon Ball series I get to watch as it comes out, and I am overjoyed the series is continuing. I even find myself REALLY enjoying it sometimes (I actually cheered for Future Trunks when he Final Flash'd Zamasu), but I also have similar feelings of just... I wish I could look back on it, and not feel like it's a guilty pleasure. And I hope the manga gets an OVA at some point succinct from the current anime.

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I would definitely like a more focused 2 hour movie adapting the Goku Black arc. I don't have much confidence it'll blow me away but I'd prefer it to be independent of the anime and manga versions with ONE trip to the future. I think most of all I'd like an OVA of Trunks dealing with Babidi and Dabura. Show us his training with the Supreme Kai and Z Sword.

While those can be two different discussions, I feel like both things add to how unlikable Goku's become in Super. I don't know why I'm supposed to root for the guy anymore when in Dragon Ball you were supposed/happy to and in Z you might go along with him despite his stupid decisions.

I think the difference is that you admit it's a guilty pleasure whereas it's the blind fanboys that sort of halt the series from being better. Why should they improve if people love what they're doing? I know it comes down to preferences and different strokes, but Super just isn't working for me. It's a blatant milking over a project born from good ideas and love of the franchise.

It's not enough to just throw Future Trunks in to attract old viewers. I was very skeptical of his return and I was right to be. No Burning Attack because animating is too difficult. He learns Final Flash offscreen but because Trunks is trash here, it doesn't do anything. They may as well have not done it. Vegeta's first Final Flash was dragged out but it felt grand.

Knowing how Trunks is written in the manga, I don't know which is worse. In the anime they have to make up a transformation he gets for no reason and no one else has so he can compete. Doesn't matter how stupid it is that he can all of a sudden fight Black evenly. They simply made it so. In the manga, the writer knows Trunks is useless and keeps him that way which is disappointing but makes sense. I don't like the idea of the healing powers coming in so randomly but at least it didn't come out of absolutely nowhere. It had an explanation.

If I was writing the arc, I would let Trunks have the win because why bring him back to be a cheerleader? I don't know what I'd do with the Zeno button afterwards, but that was a stupid plot convenience anyway and really, what does having two Zenos add to the series? I REALLY hated the Spirit Bomb sword because that also came out of nowhere but if they established that he trained in the technique in addition to the healing with Supreme Kai or something, I'd accept it more. Trunks can't compete? Do the Super Saiyan God ritual with him. Vegito inflicts a wound that Trunks takes advantage of because otherwise Vegito DID NOTHING. If you cut Vegito's scene out of the anime and just had Trunks do his Bomb sword, it'd play out exactly the same except we wouldn't have this stupid time limit to the Potara.

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You outlined so many of my god damn issues with the Goku Black that I don't know if I have anything worthwhile to add other than;

HOW. THE HELL. DID TRUNKS LEARN. THE MAFUUBA.
I could stand most of the rest of the stupid writing and asspulls in that arc. I actually had to turn that episode off the first time I watched it because that was just too fucking stupid.

I will say though, one thing I liked about the manga's version of Trunks is he felt a bit less like a wimp than his anime one. Like, he wasn't really relevant in terms of combat, but he got right the hell in there with Black and didn't have this insistence of like "They can defeat Black for me, there's no need to get stronger." Got his arse handed to him, but my god did he put in the fight.
Also, Super Saiyan 2 Trunks being stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku almost entirely because he mastered Super Saiyan 2 kind of earned me over as compared to Trunks being one-shot in the anime's version of the same fight. It also made Black more of a threat. Trunks straight thought SS3 could destroy him single-sidedly in the anime, and then one brief encounter, and Black can keep up with Blue? Trunks gets punched around a bit by his Dad, and hey, he can take on Black. He was mostly fodder in the manga's fights, but he was so heavily involved that I kind of found it equally as admirable, and I can respect that it's at least consistent in power scales. Another example of this is actually Krillin in Z. He was almost never relevant in any fight he was in, but he was there for each fight, and he had everyone's back each and every time. Characters don't need the god treatment to be well-written, though I do just wish they'd have straight given Trunks the killing blow. No Spirit Bomb Sword, no Rage transformation, just sheer, raw persistence and stubbornness. Add in what you said about him taking advantage of a wound left by Vegito, and hell yes.
I do see your point with Final Flash. There's also a point that Vegeta's Final Flash (hah) COULD have killed Cell if he had aimed it a bit lower, by official statement. Trunks straight couldn't kill Zamasu.

Honestly, that time limit addition to the Potara felt like one of the biggest weaknesses of the Black arc. Kibito Kai used Dragon Balls to undo it, make the fighters agree based on that, and then the two powers of Blue just be too strong to maintain so the earrings shatter (emphasize this) and they split apart. No need to change lore, and we imply that Vegito Blue isn't a stable fusion just like SS4 Gogeta wasn't.

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Anime Trunks is apparently a genius because he learned the Galick Gun offscreen too but to be fair, that had an eyecatch. It took Goku all night to learn the Mafuuba which wasn't all that believable but he doesn't even perform it because bad writing. What was the point then? Oops, left the jar in the time machine that got blowed up but hey, we happen to have all the pieces. Trunks performs the Mafuuba perfectly. Oops, somebody left the sticky note in the past. What, Piccolo didn't mention that in his tutorial? I liked the idea of bringing the Mafuuba back to deal with an immortal. I appreciated that like Cell's time machine, but then the characters fumble the ball in ways I couldn't imagine. And for what? To drag out the arc. They couldn't just use the Mafuuba properly with the charm and have Black break the jar? He did show up after Zamasu got sealed.

I guess I have to agree that the manga handled Trunks better even if the anime tried to give him the spotlight in the stupidest ways. It came down to fanservice over logic which is the anime's M.O.

At least for the anime, Goku's first encounter with Black annoyed me because Goku didn't need Blue to fight him. Why should I care about the main villain if he can't handle Blue? There was no reason for Vegeta to not just go up there and destroy the threat to his son's timeline. Instead, Black gets Super Saiyan Rose for no reason, a form that's stronger than Blue despite Black having no other transformations and previously couldn't defeat Super Saiyan 2 (?) Goku because this was written by hacks.

I thought they specifically had Kibito Kai split to establish that Potara fusions no longer have the permanent-ness as a drawback. As it is now and especially in the anime, why did they make Kibito Kai split at all? While we're at it, why not split the witch from Old Kai? It's not like he's doing anything with his abilities and there's no way he likes looking like that. Did they not use the other two wishes?

On another note, Trunks' hair color... Is this the biggest problem with the arc? No, but the fact that they didn't change kid Trunks'  hair with it and in the Z flashbacks explaining Cell's time machine they put a color filter over those scenes to hide his hair color speaks volumes. Why did they do this in the first place? Did they think the audience was so stupid that they couldn't tell the difference between Future and kid Trunks unless they changed one of their hair colors?

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