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SirCod

Rules for reforming PanZ.

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1.      All MP Powers must be equal to a card played from your hand. Piccolo, Krillin, and Ginyu dominated the early game, because they had virtual hand advantage over their opponents. The only exception to this rule would be Cooler’s level 1 power. Supernova more than makes up for it.

2.      All MP Powers must be just as good as any card that a player would include in his deck. Would you run twelve copies of Nappa’s level one power if it were a physical attack, instead of an MP power? How about Nail’s level one attack? No. Those cards would be common level jank.

3.      Cards in PanZ cannot be better than their Score counterparts. This isn’t hard to understand. ScoreZ was on another level. You don’t see MTG reprinting a better version of Black Lotus for standard play. Why the heck does PanZ have better versions of KHSB, Awful Abrasions, and Aura Clash?

4.      Most of the milling cards, and card effects need to be removed from the game (keep A20’s Choke, BST, and BSM). In DBZ your life deck represents gametime. When you draw your last card your time is up. When somebody does nothing but block, and play card effects to destroy or banish cards directly from your deck, they are playing for time. Landing a single punch, and then running from your opponent for the rest of the fight would cost you a boxing match. It goes against the spirit of DBZ as whole, and makes games boring. No, I’m not saying that control shouldn’t be a thing in this game. There are ways to win with a control deck other than milling your opponent to death. You can win by DB, you can play a slow anger victory game ala Red Cooler, and you can rejuvenate until the cows come home in Namekian. Or better yet, you can set up a complicated coup de grace and finish your opponent in one fell swoop ala Carpet Attack.

5.      The player going first needs to start with four cards in his hand. The player going second needs to draw one card at the start of the game and power up. This way both players start the game on equal footing.

6.      No MP power under level 4 should be equal to playing two cards from your hand. This mostly applies to Broly’s level 3. It could possibly be applied to Cooler, and 13 as well, but I think testing would need to be done.

7. Cooler Ally, and Nappa Ally cannot be placed back into your deck from the banished zone. Have you ever played Tag Ginyu vs Red Roshi? How about vs Orange Yamcha? The match is unwinnable thanks to Nappa and Cooler being impossible to deal with. 

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Some of these changes are pretty simple, and would work as just erratas, while others would require a complete redesign of MP stacks (that mostly being the first point and sixth point). The fifth point feels a bit iffy in design (giving your opponent a PUR on your first turn, and then an EXTRA one on their turn when you don't get one), and while it looks nice on paper, there is no real way to expect it to stay reasonably balanced in an ever-developing game, though the easy fix to this is to just change PUR so that it procs during both players main phase (could be neat, could be broke, would certainly make it more of a tug of war in terms of gaining an edge).
Point 4 would be an incredibly extensive banlist that I just don't think is worth it if we really want a strong community-driven game. The CRD is already pretty counter-intuitive in terms of bringing in new players because it is just an endless list of paragraphs with clarifications and erratas. Add onto that a much more prominent Frozen list, and we're just adding extra barriers to entry.

Point 3 feels unnecessary. I don't think there should be an aversion to ultimately making PanZ cards that can keep pace with some ScoreZ cards so long as they come appropriately late in the game. If we're looking at the Kid Buu era of Dragon Ball, then we should probably start to see the introduction of some better cards. I'd honestly just like to see more in the way of archtype cards and more liberal use of power stage cost when it comes to the stronger attacks (Bicycle Kick, I'm looking at you). Look at "Swords"; there's some pretty prominent power stage costs here and there that stop stupid levels of comboes. Imagine Dashing Sword Attack without any power stage costs, or remove the power stage costs from Trunks' Sword Slash and it becomes a much more powerful, much more easily abused attack. This was a good outline that immediately disappeared.

This feels less like a reform of the current game, and more like a blueprint for yet another iteration of the Dragon Ball TCG which I really don't think we have the community for at this juncture.

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2 minutes ago, Denithan said:

Some of these changes are pretty simple, and would work as just erratas, while others would require a complete redesign of MP stacks (that mostly being the first point and sixth point). The fifth point feels a bit iffy in design (giving your opponent a PUR on your first turn, and then an EXTRA one on their turn when you don't get one), and while it looks nice on paper, there is no real way to expect it to stay reasonably balanced in an ever-developing game, though the easy fix to this is to just change PUR so that it procs during both players main phase (could be neat, could be broke, would certainly make it more of a tug of war in terms of gaining an edge).
Point 4 would be an incredibly extensive banlist that I just don't think is worth it if we really want a strong community-driven game. The CRD is already pretty counter-intuitive in terms of bringing in new players because it is just an endless list of paragraphs with clarifications and erratas. Add onto that a much more prominent Frozen list, and we're just adding extra barriers to entry.

Point 3 feels unnecessary. I don't think there should be an aversion to ultimately making PanZ cards that can keep pace with some ScoreZ cards so long as they come appropriately late in the game. If we're looking at the Kid Buu era of Dragon Ball, then we should probably start to see the introduction of some better cards. I'd honestly just like to see more in the way of archtype cards and more liberal use of power stage cost when it comes to the stronger attacks (Bicycle Kick, I'm looking at you). Look at "Swords"; there's some pretty prominent power stage costs here and there that stop stupid levels of comboes. Imagine Dashing Sword Attack without any power stage costs, or remove the power stage costs from Trunks' Sword Slash and it becomes a much more powerful, much more easily abused attack. This was a good outline that immediately disappeared.

This feels less like a reform of the current game, and more like a blueprint for yet another iteration of the Dragon Ball TCG which I really don't think we have the community for at this juncture.

Yeah I think the power up idea could be bad, now that you mention it. The player going second would get PUR advantage every game. What if we just made it so that both players started at 8 stages above zero, and there was no PUR on each player's first turn? 

Half the MP stacks in this game need serious redesigns. Even the official game creators have admitted that via giving us new levels for old MP stacks. If every MP stack were competitive, this game would be played for years and years. It would be almost impossible to run out of all the combinations of decks. 

As far as point 4 goes, maybe not everything would need to be banned so hard. There are some main offenders though like Orange Destruction, Black Foreshadowing, and Namekian Overtime.  I think some combination of those would need to be banned or nerfed. Either that or give the playerbase better answers to the milling strategy. Print answers other than Lookout Drill. Maybe give Saiyan an attachment card that prevents milling or banishing? Or an ally with the same effect?

As far as point 3 goes, I consider this game to be dead. FanZ doesn't exist in my mind. The game ended with set 7. 
 

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Just now, SirCod said:

I forgot Roshi could run Red Ascension now. :P 

Nah brah, red crits too much for any allies to be a problem at all.  Say Blue or Black Roshi had a disadvantage, Red Roshi kicked the shit outta Ginyu.

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Just now, ChangelingBard said:

Nah brah, red crits too much for any allies to be a problem at all.  Say Blue or Black Roshi had a disadvantage, Red Roshi kicked the shit outta Ginyu.

You do realize Tag Ginyu could just run Lunar Ray, Battle Ready, and Overpowering attack to get Nappa back into play right? Not to mention his level 2 power with Dominance. For every Red card that crits Ginyu has a way to get the card back into play from the DC pile. Not sure how you played Red Roshi in your area, but he was 1/3rd setups in my experience. 

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Just now, SirCod said:

You do realize Tag Ginyu could just run Lunar Ray, Battle Ready, and Overpowering attack to get Nappa back into play right? Not to mention his level 2 power with Dominance. For every Red card that crits Ginyu has a way to get the card back into play from the DC pile. Not sure how you played Red Roshi in your area, but he was 1/3rd setups in my experience. 

On paper it looks bleak but in a game it's literally fine.  Setups are a useful tool, not deck defining must haves for Red Roshi.  Plus even with all of blues get back Nappa wont be in play. 

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48 minutes ago, ChangelingBard said:

On paper it looks bleak but in a game it's literally fine.  Setups are a useful tool, not deck defining must haves for Red Roshi.  Plus even with all of blues get back Nappa wont be in play. 

This. Trust us, ChangelingBard, Dashy, and myself have been running Red Roshi since before it was a thing and Tag Ginyu has never locked us or any other Red Roshi player down unless it was a luck sack or the Roshi player was inexperienced. I can literally crit 2-5 times a turn on average in a Red Roshi deck. The first thing my play group did was switch to variations of Blue to go against me. On paper it looks like Roshi has met his match, in practice there is too much anger and crits for Tag or Protective to keep up with. To make it worst and to justify Roshi still not being allowed back in Enrage, Roshi can fully get locked out of MPPV and stuck at level 1 or 2 and still be guaranteed the match through crit control and stall and win by attrition or DBV consistently. This was the reason Roshi was so hated. It could play aggressive and then when things start to go bad, immediately switch to defense and control against most any deck while staying viable in that match. I actually agree with Roshi being locked out of Enraged. It was my favorite deck, it's fun and exciting to play, but I never once felt challenged while running it. 

Now, I say this only considering the set 6 Meta. I haven't touched Red Enraged Roshi since Enrage being banished and probably won't as I'm going to play PanZ in it's final form. This however means I probably will never play with Red Enraged again since none of the MP's listed for it seem fun to me. I also don't understand Roshi not being allowed for Black Devious Mastery seeing as how it's strong but not broken and they literally made a level 1 to go with it. 

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3 hours ago, SirCod said:

1.      All MP Powers must be equal to a card played from your hand. Piccolo, Krillin, and Ginyu dominated the early game, because they had virtual hand advantage over their opponents. The only exception to this rule would be Cooler’s level 1 power. Supernova more than makes up for it.

2.      All MP Powers must be just as good as any card that a player would include in his deck. Would you run twelve copies of Nappa’s level one power if it were a physical attack, instead of an MP power? How about Nail’s level one attack? No. Those cards would be common level jank.

6.      No MP power under level 4 should be equal to playing two cards from your hand. This mostly applies to Broly’s level 3. It could possibly be applied to Cooler, and 13 as well, but I think testing would need to be done.

 

I agree with these for another reboot.

But we also need to power down attacks, remove Endurance, bring back Keywords, ect. There is a lot to fix imo.

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7 hours ago, Majin Goo said:

This. Trust us, ChangelingBard, Dashy, and myself have been running Red Roshi since before it was a thing and Tag Ginyu has never locked us or any other Red Roshi player down unless it was a luck sack or the Roshi player was inexperienced. I can literally crit 2-5 times a turn on average in a Red Roshi deck. The first thing my play group did was switch to variations of Blue to go against me. On paper it looks like Roshi has met his match, in practice there is too much anger and crits for Tag or Protective to keep up with. To make it worst and to justify Roshi still not being allowed back in Enrage, Roshi can fully get locked out of MPPV and stuck at level 1 or 2 and still be guaranteed the match through crit control and stall and win by attrition or DBV consistently. This was the reason Roshi was so hated. It could play aggressive and then when things start to go bad, immediately switch to defense and control against most any deck while staying viable in that match. I actually agree with Roshi being locked out of Enraged. It was my favorite deck, it's fun and exciting to play, but I never once felt challenged while running it. 

Now, I say this only considering the set 6 Meta. I haven't touched Red Enraged Roshi since Enrage being banished and probably won't as I'm going to play PanZ in it's final form. This however means I probably will never play with Red Enraged again since none of the MP's listed for it seem fun to me. I also don't understand Roshi not being allowed for Black Devious Mastery seeing as how it's strong but not broken and they literally made a level 1 to go with it. 

The only non-setup cards that use critical damage effects in Red Roshi are Grab and Knee Lift. How are you using six cards in your deck to land a minimum of two crits a combat? Is there some combo or loop I don't know about? 

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7 hours ago, Artificial Human said:

I agree with these for another reboot.

But we also need to power down attacks, remove Endurance, bring back Keywords, ect. There is a lot to fix imo.

I will forever have mixed feelings in regards to the removal of endurance. I might just rather see a remodeling of like, how critical damage works. So even if your opponent used endurance, if you hit for 5, you hit a crit just so we still balance out deck counts and can encourage longer games.

Or maybe remove it, and discourage those longer form games? Or maybe set it up so cards with Endurance are more filler than they are staples, creating a balance of offense VS defense. idk, I feel like there are a lot of options here with endurance that would actually need some experimentation.
And I think rather than power down attacks, give attacks appropriate costs. So something that's +5 stages DEFINITELY needs to cost a stage or two to perform, you shouldn't just be dropping that without thought.

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3 hours ago, SirCod said:

The only non-setup cards that use critical damage effects in Red Roshi are Grab and Knee Lift. How are you using six cards in your deck to land a minimum of two crits a combat? Is there some combo or loop I don't know about? 

A: Remember what I said about inexperienced players. Nappa is only one threat and once I know it's apart of your game plan you will not have it out alone again unless it is your only ally (which won't happen in a Ginyu deck).

B: Reread my original post. It says nothing about Nappa being in the field and averaging 2-5 critical damage effects a turn.  It's an overall average for the deck in general. Also, remember, an average isn't a minimum. I can have combats with 1 critical damage effect and some combats with 3+ and still average a minimum of 2 overall.

C: You don't need to loop anything to do that with those 6 cards. 1 Shoulder Grab turns all attacks into CDE generators. So it isn't unreasonable to land two hits afterwards. Red Knee Lift always generates a CDE and on hit generates 2 CDE's at no actual cost in Red Enraged. 

D: Got to include that Tug of War. That card is incredibly consistent in hurting Ally decks. 

E: If I'm feeling froggy, Red Energy Blast.

That's just to name a few, with just those examples you're now looking at possibly 12 cards, with 2 additional cards that turn into any card I want and I don't have to show the pull to you. All of that can consistently set me up to deal  with Nappa and get the crit train rolling again. Red has a lot of options and why Red Enraged was so powerful. 

As much as I hate it, Blue in the set 6 meta was not enough to keep Red Enraged down in the hands of Roshi and Cooler. So in conclusion I agree with Richie's decision. Red Enraged is too consistent with Cooler and Roshi. Going against either Blue Mastery at the time they could easily win by attrition or DBV and even pull off MPPV. 

I understand on paper it looks impossible, but in practice Roshi and Cooler are incredibly consistent MP's that bring a lot of options to a Mastery and Style that already have a lot of options. I stand by what I say, Nappa has never been the factor in me losing with Red Enraged Roshi and Blue hasn't been a problem for Red Enraged since set 5. 

Just remember, my perspective is based on the set 6 meta. There is no such thing as Red Enraged Roshi in the set 7 meta and shouldn't be a factor in anyone's planning. 

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55 minutes ago, Denithan said:

I will forever have mixed feelings in regards to the removal of endurance. I might just rather see a remodeling of like, how critical damage works. So even if your opponent used endurance, if you hit for 5, you hit a crit just so we still balance out deck counts and can encourage longer games.

Or maybe remove it, and discourage those longer form games? Or maybe set it up so cards with Endurance are more filler than they are staples, creating a balance of offense VS defense. idk, I feel like there are a lot of options here with endurance that would actually need some experimentation.
And I think rather than power down attacks, give attacks appropriate costs. So something that's +5 stages DEFINITELY needs to cost a stage or two to perform, you shouldn't just be dropping that without thought.

Endurance was necessary because the game made a really bad combination play of power creep and never following it's own guidelines for Energies. The original game could just say 'Energy Attack' and it'd cost 2 stages and deal 4 life cards. That's the base power and cost that didn't needed to be stated on cards. The game would be a lot better off if they had actually used this base when designing cards. I'm not saying Endurance isn't a fun interactive mechanic, because it is, but the reason for it isn't necessary.

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Endurance should exist but it was overdone. No card should exceed 3 Endurance and even then high Endurance should not have been put on Tier 1 cards. I feel like Panini's biggest issue with development was properly scaling cards to be both balanced and fun. In most cases, they either went too far or some cards were just useless. 

Here are my fixes for them:

  • Create a standard for keywords. Define Keywords. Consistently use them every time. Roshi wouldn't have shuffle problems and Vengence Roshi wouldn't have some weird clarification in how he gets along with Beerus if this had been a part of the design.
  • Create a standard for wording mechanics. Define those standards. Consistently use them every time. One of their biggest problems was wording. There are only so many things you can do with the engine. A finite number of options. As you come up with each one write it down, proof-read it, let average people proof-read it, test it, finalize it, and always word it the same. 
  • Speaking of mechanics... Don't create card effects that are not apart of the damn card. The way parenthetical text worked in this game was asinine. If it's printed on the card it is apart of the card and therefore an effect of the card. Doing it any other way is counter-intuitive and creates confusion. Roshi Ally and Blue Tag interaction being a prime example. 
  • Focus more on developing Styles and giving them unique identities. Focus less on making Freestyle Cards the best part of any deck. 

Those are my ideas. I honestly would never believe they carefully planned any sets other than set 5 and 6. Sets 1-3 were extremely meh. Set 4 failed to accomplish their overall goal with the exception of Android 20. Set 7, I feel their Mastery Card design was spot on and there MP development was good with the exception of 2, but there were still printing errors and obvious balance issues. How they didn't see Goku and Orange Retribution Mastery being problems is a mystery and did they not see the potential loop for Hercule. I get that they fixed the loop, but only after we pointed it out to them and it was an extremely obvious loop. 

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5 hours ago, Majin Goo said:

A: Remember what I said about inexperienced players. Nappa is only one threat and once I know it's apart of your game plan you will not have it out alone again unless it is your only ally (which won't happen in a Ginyu deck).

B: Reread my original post. It says nothing about Nappa being in the field and averaging 2-5 critical damage effects a turn.  It's an overall average for the deck in general. Also, remember, an average isn't a minimum. I can have combats with 1 critical damage effect and some combats with 3+ and still average a minimum of 2 overall.

C: You don't need to loop anything to do that with those 6 cards. 1 Shoulder Grab turns all attacks into CDE generators. So it isn't unreasonable to land two hits afterwards. Red Knee Lift always generates a CDE and on hit generates 2 CDE's at no actual cost in Red Enraged. 

D: Got to include that Tug of War. That card is incredibly consistent in hurting Ally decks. 

E: If I'm feeling froggy, Red Energy Blast.

That's just to name a few, with just those examples you're now looking at possibly 12 cards, with 2 additional cards that turn into any card I want and I don't have to show the pull to you. All of that can consistently set me up to deal  with Nappa and get the crit train rolling again. Red has a lot of options and why Red Enraged was so powerful. 

As much as I hate it, Blue in the set 6 meta was not enough to keep Red Enraged down in the hands of Roshi and Cooler. So in conclusion I agree with Richie's decision. Red Enraged is too consistent with Cooler and Roshi. Going against either Blue Mastery at the time they could easily win by attrition or DBV and even pull off MPPV. 

I understand on paper it looks impossible, but in practice Roshi and Cooler are incredibly consistent MP's that bring a lot of options to a Mastery and Style that already have a lot of options. I stand by what I say, Nappa has never been the factor in me losing with Red Enraged Roshi and Blue hasn't been a problem for Red Enraged since set 5. 

Just remember, my perspective is based on the set 6 meta. There is no such thing as Red Enraged Roshi in the set 7 meta and shouldn't be a factor in anyone's planning. 

Yeah average isn't the same as minimum. That makes sense. 

Tug Of War is the answer I was looking for. That card is guaranteed to go off eventually, and when it does Roshi can just burn through all his setups in a single combat. Just two in a deck should be enough to throw Ginyu off balance long enough for Roshi to dominate. I think Tug, Weighted Clothing, and Supernova are all fantastic cards because they are rubber bands. The more you are losing, the more likely they are to help you win. 

In my own experience without Tug of War, Roshi is left hunting for Red Energy Blast, or praying that the Ginyu player doesn't have an effect that searches the DC pile (which he does just as often as you have a crit.) Also the way I built Red Roshi was with 18 setups in a single deck along with DBs. Maybe you ran a different build that had a few less setups. 

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4 hours ago, Majin Goo said:

Endurance should exist but it was overdone. No card should exceed 3 Endurance and even then high Endurance should not have been put on Tier 1 cards. I feel like Panini's biggest issue with development was properly scaling cards to be both balanced and fun. In most cases, they either went too far or some cards were just useless. 

Here are my fixes for them:

  • Create a standard for keywords. Define Keywords. Consistently use them every time. Roshi wouldn't have shuffle problems and Vengence Roshi wouldn't have some weird clarification in how he gets along with Beerus if this had been a part of the design.
  • Create a standard for wording mechanics. Define those standards. Consistently use them every time. One of their biggest problems was wording. There are only so many things you can do with the engine. A finite number of options. As you come up with each one write it down, proof-read it, let average people proof-read it, test it, finalize it, and always word it the same. 
  • Speaking of mechanics... Don't create card effects that are not apart of the damn card. The way parenthetical text worked in this game was asinine. If it's printed on the card it is apart of the card and therefore an effect of the card. Doing it any other way is counter-intuitive and creates confusion. Roshi Ally and Blue Tag interaction being a prime example. 
  • Focus more on developing Styles and giving them unique identities. Focus less on making Freestyle Cards the best part of any deck. 

Those are my ideas. I honestly would never believe they carefully planned any sets other than set 5 and 6. Sets 1-3 were extremely meh. Set 4 failed to accomplish their overall goal with the exception of Android 20. Set 7, I feel their Mastery Card design was spot on and there MP development was good with the exception of 2, but there were still printing errors and obvious balance issues. How they didn't see Goku and Orange Retribution Mastery being problems is a mystery and did they not see the potential loop for Hercule. I get that they fixed the loop, but only after we pointed it out to them and it was an extremely obvious loop. 

Yeah, every style needs to do it's own thing to an extent. Red = combos, physical beats, and anger. Orange = Drills. Black = deck dismantling. Blue = Defending, Allies, and Anti-Anger. Red drill based decks for example were a waste of design space. 

What was the loop with Hercule? That he never died until he drew all 3 copies of his named card? 

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2 hours ago, SirCod said:

What was the loop with Hercule? That he never died until he drew all 3 copies of his named card? 

Yes. If you had his named cards with Dragon Balls, he couldn't be killed due to his named card counting as damage and cycling back in. With well placed timing you could come back from that and DBV. Fortunately, the one thing the Developers had on this game was they would hear us and at times listen. 

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1 hour ago, Majin Goo said:

Yes. If you had his named cards with Dragon Balls, he couldn't be killed due to his named card counting as damage and cycling back in. With well placed timing you could come back from that and DBV. Fortunately, the one thing the Developers had on this game was they would hear us and at times listen. 

Ah ok that's what I thought it was. Yeah, I was one of the first people to point out how busted that loop would be, in the set 7 previews threads. How did they fix the loop BTW?

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6 hours ago, SirCod said:

I think Tug, Weighted Clothing, and Supernova are all fantastic cards because they are rubber bands. The more you are losing, the more likely they are to help you win. 
 

Tug is a necessary evil with how viable allies are but I don't really like the silver bullet-ness of it. I'm glad you didn't include 13's Impenetrable Defense. I hate that it goes off immediately and can return from the banished pile. At least Weighted Clothing is a dead card that requires an action when used from the discard.

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Random thought, since these would really apply more for a remake of the game than a reform, what about adding the ability to gain 1 anger from a critical effect to accelerate anger gain? We may need to do something to balance it, like add back in Level 5 (which I'm not for personally), but it would help fix some of the Unleashed problem.

Or we can just not have Unleashed period.

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I think hitting setups and/or drills should be added to critical effects but criticals need to be not so easy to accomplish. There's just not enough decent cards that can handle big boards. Either that or all decks should have access to at least one board hate card even if that's all the card does. Perhaps along the lines of Devastating Blow. And no, Saiyan Sabotage doesn't count. Every time they put that in a starter I would go nuts. This isn't a color pie thing. It's not like any style is inherently the board hate style, but I don't feel like there's enough board hate for those decks.

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