SirCod

Awakening Cell is broken.

61 posts in this topic

19 hours ago, sh0ryu_repp4 said:

I think that is just because those decks aren't good. Better decks and options are gonna shut off other decks/options just by the nature of being better. Whatever "good" happens to be is going to naturally push out the things that are "bad" or just "not as good".

Well you should define your definition of good. Of course better decks and options will close doors . Mind you Tag Team 13 and Protective Raditz have topped events prior. It's not like I mentioned Villian Vegeta or Wheelo. 

We are talking about whether the existence of certain strategies fosters a healthy diverse metagame where decks have to respond to each other's strategies. 

I mention those decks in particular because before awakening Cell, they could win games (excluding Radiant of course). They had their weaknesses but they were fun interactive decks. Even if they didn't have the best win rates, they had a chance to win against even the best of decks. Awakening Cell makes them absolutely obsolete, like <20% win rate. It's a shame because they have a chance against other stuff like Broly/Yamcha.

 

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So, what I am seeing here is

 

"Awkening Cell is bad because mt favorite decks don't do well against it" 

 

As a little insight. When set 5 dropped, locally I wasn't able to play alot and one of pur locals kept claiming he had the best deck in the area; Devious Raditz. He only ran blocks and utility attacks and refused to play against MPPV or DBV decks because 'that's not playing dbz" I personally could bot beat it with Tien. Try after try I couldn't land the hits. Yet Tien couldplay with thw big boys and still can. You seem to have the same issue.  Cell is just a hard counter to what you like. 

 

 

 

Note: That black radtiz has yet to beat any of my 13 decks, or my top 16 O.20

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Sure, I agree that my opinion should probably be taken with a grain of salt, but I don't agree that my point be dismissed completely. Cell is not just a hard counter to what I like. Cell is the epitome of autopilot in this game. Mill is essentially unstoppable, unpreventable damage (but it can't crit at least). 

Before Cell, mill mechanics were offset by not being very efficient or coming from a source that was easily countered (like a drill for example). That is why things that punished milling weren't needed, and Lookout Drill sufficed. Now, we have Cell that provides efficient mill by himself (every turn) without any investment or sacrifice in deck building.

Like I said, it is just my opinion. I am sure people have had thought provoking and interesting games playing with and against Awakening Cell, but that has not been my personal experience. 

 

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On 7/13/2017 at 6:35 AM, Jaith1 said:

Sure, I agree that my opinion should probably be taken with a grain of salt, but I don't agree that my point be dismissed completely. Cell is not just a hard counter to what I like. Cell is the epitome of autopilot in this game. Mill is essentially unstoppable, unpreventable damage (but it can't crit at least). 

Before Cell, mill mechanics were offset by not being very efficient or coming from a source that was easily countered (like a drill for example). That is why things that punished milling weren't needed, and Lookout Drill sufficed. Now, we have Cell that provides efficient mill by himself (every turn) without any investment or sacrifice in deck building.

Like I said, it is just my opinion. I am sure people have had thought provoking and interesting games playing with and against Awakening Cell, but that has not been my personal experience. 

 

I have a hard time considering Cell as anything more than another rogue deck when he continues to be a non-factor. Yeah, cool he mills. Mill is a strong option against some decks. That's like complaining 13 is too strong because he can level when you hit him and hit his Impenetrable Defense cards. 

You say we should redefine what we think is a "good" deck. Personally, I think you should. You bring up that these decks you like have a chance to win against the top decks. That's cute. But a good deck shouldn't be defined by it's potential. It should be defined by it's consistency AND it's performance. Tien is a good example of a high potential deck. Perceptive Tien can literally beat any deck out there if it hits the right cards. But it can also lose to any deck out there. Tien is not a good deck, because it lacks consistency, despite having really high potential.

Right now, I would say Empowered Broly and arguably Namekian Gohan are the two decks that are in contention for "Best" right now. They have really high potential, and are very consistent. There is a reason they continue to top events. Even when Empowered was banned for worlds, Dynamic Broly showed up. Awakening Cell on the other hand has done... a few top 8s I think? 0 top 4s?
 

I get not liking an MP stack and what it does. I'm pretty sure we all have that MP. Mine is Trunks... Honestly when I play against Trunks I feel like they gave him everything. Is he OP? Doubt it. But man, am I one triggered SOB whenever I play against it. The fact that I have typed out 3 paragraphs ranting about it (Deleted each one) just thinking about how many things about that MP upset me. I get the feeling that Awakening Cell is to you what Trunks is to me. 

Vile, v3rse, sh0ryu_repp4 and 2 others like this

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I hate trunks too man, he is definitely up there. Maybe I have to just come to terms with the fact that I hate this game despite how awesome it actually is.

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32 minutes ago, Jaith1 said:

I hate trunks too man, he is definitely up there. Maybe I have to just come to terms with the fact that I hate this game despite how awesome it actually is.

Nah man. You sound ready to give up on something you are passionate about. Just have to think outside the box (or in this case, inside the box). I still haven't found a good consistent way to beat trunks, but that doesn't mean that I don't still have a bunch of fun decks I want to try and play (Though I admit, my saiyan Raditz deck doesn't see much play these days). Cell I think requires a two fold attack. 1: Level punishment 2: Ally removal.

 

Protective Raditz actually should have decent access to both of those tools. With blue having many level drop cards and tons of anti-anger you should have no problem level locking him at level 1 with the right build and Blue Betrayal can deal with Cells allies really well. I don't know what exactly your deck is built around, but the tools are there. If you put your head into in the game and your heart into the deck, I'm sure you can find a way to overcome Cell. If you hit any speed bumps I'm sure myself and even better players than I can take a look at the problem and help you analyse the issue.

 

 

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There really wasn't any 1 character I hated more than another. Maybe Broly? I just hated when noobs would play techy decks and because of the bullshit rule "you have to remind your opponet of their triggers" I would beat myself in matches. Part of skill is knowing your damn deck, I shouldn't have to tell you have to play Namekian Gohan, essepcally because I never built the damn thing. 

 

I understand being nice to someone new or when playtesting a new deck, heck even causal locals, but at a regionals? No, screw you, I'm not besting myself so you can progress without understanding the game. 

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4 minutes ago, Vile said:

There really wasn't any 1 character I hated more than another. Maybe Broly? I just hated when noobs would play techy decks and because of the bullshit rule "you have to remind your opponet of their triggers" I would beat myself in matches. Part of skill is knowing your damn deck, I shouldn't have to tell you have to play Namekian Gohan, essepcally because I never built the damn thing. 

 

I understand being nice to someone new or when playtesting a new deck, heck even causal locals, but at a regionals? No, screw you, I'm not besting myself so you can progress without understanding the game. 

Good guy Vile. Reminding people of their stuff. 

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Just now, Amanax said:

Good guy Vile. Reminding people of their stuff. 

Not really. I only did it because at a regionals Richie explicitly told me I had to. He said part of the game is keeping your opponet aware of his triggers. I was givien a warning because a naive had the 5 watt light bulb idea to stack his drills with only the title showing. Upside down to me, in ultra pro sleves, at the edge of his playmat partly behind his deck/discard pile. I didn't know he had a drill that would make him do less damage, he wsnt to, he wore sunglasses so i couldn't see his eyes and where his attention was. I waited a second, said hit, took said damage and he flipped out and tried to get me DQ'd all because I wasn't aware of one minor trigger of his. You would also think after I flip over csrd 1 he would stop me and be like "oh that hit? Activate this!" But no. Wait till its all done and I hit no endurance to call it. 

 

 

The van helsing wanna-be was simply paving the peasants way to victory by trying to win via disqualification. After my unnessercy write up warning that I signed in an illegal colour by bank standards (Pink! Mwuhahaha!) I proceeded to  smack him with a dig and pop off 2 Ki Buildups and a Blue Reject (reject his scum presence!) For the most satisfying kill in my DBZ career.  Don't trial with Vile is the moral. 

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3 minutes ago, Vile said:

Not really. I only did it because at a regionals Richie explicitly told me I had to. He said part of the game is keeping your opponet aware of his triggers. I was givien a warning because a naive had the 5 watt light bulb idea to stack his drills with only the title showing. Upside down to me, in ultra pro sleves, at the edge of his playmat partly behind his deck/discard pile. I didn't know he had a drill that would make him do less damage, he wsnt to, he wore sunglasses so i couldn't see his eyes and where his attention was. I waited a second, said hit, took said damage and he flipped out and tried to get me DQ'd all because I wasn't aware of one minor trigger of his. You would also think after I flip over csrd 1 he would stop me and be like "oh that hit? Activate this!" But no. Wait till its all done and I hit no endurance to call it. 

 

 

The van helsing wanna-be was simply paving the peasants way to victory by trying to win via disqualification. After my unnessercy write up warning that I signed in an illegal colour by bank standards (Pink! Mwuhahaha!) I proceeded to  smack him with a dig and pop off 2 Ki Buildups and a Blue Reject (reject his scum presence!) For the most satisfying kill in my DBZ career.  Don't trial with Vile is the moral. 

Holy balls man. You still played after that? I'm pretty sure a ruling like that would have tilted me off the face of the planet. At some point part of being a judge is to see the obvious in front of your face and not just what's in the rulebook. Granted, I only have your side of things, but even if only half of that's true I hope that kid got at least something....

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Totally off topic but going off the last few posts, I still think tiebreakers should be applied for swiss. I don't know how others feel about that but I just don't care for ties, especially when there's a VERY clear winner after extra turns are finished. FanZ follows Panini's rules as much as they can which I'm okay with, but since Panini didn't do anything regarding these issues with the last CRD post, we're just not going to have either.

Regarding triggers, I dislike having to remind my opponent about any triggers. I admit that we're all prone to forget our own at times as well, but I feel that if such a rule is in place, it should only apply to mandatory triggers. If I'm guessing right, your opponent had Orange Energy Phasing Drill? That's an optional effect. You shouldn't have to ask about each and every card on the board if they don't say anything. Maybe when it comes to Events, it's worth asking "Sphere?" but otherwise, no. It should be their problem. I don't know any other game that does this.

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Man, this topic took an epic swing from Cell being overpowered/good/annoying, to some really interesting recounts about players' experiences with tournaments and playing the game.
I kind of can't get enough.
And man am I curious about the hate on Trunks.

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I think it's still fun to talk about the card game whenever someone has something good to bring up.

I'm okay with Trunks. Perhaps I'm not seeing the builds they're talking about or I'm running the right decks/cards to stop him, but I'm assuming it's how fast he gets off 1 and once they hit Evolution 3, they're in a good position for the most part. I think the crux of it is his 2 because it doesn't do anything to further a win condition and it's blank against at least half of the matchups. I generally can't stop his 1 but when they're on 2, they're kind of stuck relying on good draws to get off of it.

 

8 hours ago, Jaith1 said:

Maybe I have to just come to terms with the fact that I hate this game despite how awesome it actually is.

 

That kind of says it all. I have numerous problems with the cards and the nonsensical rules, but the game itself will always be fun.

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14 hours ago, Vile said:

Not really. I only did it because at a regionals Richie explicitly told me I had to. He said part of the game is keeping your opponet aware of his triggers. I was givien a warning because a naive had the 5 watt light bulb idea to stack his drills with only the title showing. Upside down to me, in ultra pro sleves, at the edge of his playmat partly behind his deck/discard pile. I didn't know he had a drill that would make him do less damage, he wsnt to, he wore sunglasses so i couldn't see his eyes and where his attention was. I waited a second, said hit, took said damage and he flipped out and tried to get me DQ'd all because I wasn't aware of one minor trigger of his. You would also think after I flip over csrd 1 he would stop me and be like "oh that hit? Activate this!" But no. Wait till its all done and I hit no endurance to call it. 

 

 

The van helsing wanna-be was simply paving the peasants way to victory by trying to win via disqualification. After my unnessercy write up warning that I signed in an illegal colour by bank standards (Pink! Mwuhahaha!) I proceeded to  smack him with a dig and pop off 2 Ki Buildups and a Blue Reject (reject his scum presence!) For the most satisfying kill in my DBZ career.  Don't trial with Vile is the moral. 

I would have absolutely popped the fuck off if that happened to me. But glad you got to go full Geese Howard on him at the end lol

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1 hour ago, sh0ryu_repp4 said:

I would have absolutely popped the fuck off if that happened to me. But glad you got to go full Geese Howard on him at the end lol

Same guy I witnessed at my first big event,  a 500 at a place called Yeti games.  He cheated hard and I couldn't call him out. Why do you ask? Because poor management. 

 

The rule was, if you notice something that requires a judge, go find a judge. Don't interfear with anothers game. That's fine and dandy if the judges wear something that sticks out and are walking around judging not playing. Well, these two looked like a regular player and were in a game.  

 

What the pleabe did was call combat, his opponet cracked Isolation, and he continued to count his drills for effects.  Because of that he won and it bumbed him into topcut. 

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27 minutes ago, Vile said:

Same guy I witnessed at my first big event,  a 500 at a place called Yeti games.  He cheated hard and I couldn't call him out. Why do you ask? Because poor management. 

 

The rule was, if you notice something that requires a judge, go find a judge. Don't interfear with anothers game. That's fine and dandy if the judges wear something that sticks out and are walking around judging not playing. Well, these two looked like a regular player and were in a game.  

 

What the pleabe did was call combat, his opponet cracked Isolation, and he continued to count his drills for effects.  Because of that he won and it bumbed him into topcut. 

There were so many structural problems with PanZ's tournaments...

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Agreed. I wish I could remember what site the guy claimed to be a part of, DB Radio, DB podcast? His name was like Melvin, Martin, michael? Something like that. 

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15 hours ago, Denithan said:

Man, this topic took an epic swing from Cell being overpowered/good/annoying, to some really interesting recounts about players' experiences with tournaments and playing the game.
I kind of can't get enough.
And man am I curious about the hate on Trunks.

Ascension Trunks is my most hated combo. Had to play against it at West Kai. Previously it was Orange (Both Adept and Retribution) trunks.

 

The West Kai deck I actually got two games in against (We messed up pretty bad in play on the first game so wanted to see if it would actually have mattered).

A quick run down of the two games is in the spoiler. They were the only games all day where I didn't feel in control of the flow of the match, and to speak to my anger control, it was the only deck all day to get past level 2 (Including against Empowered Broly for one of my matches)

Trunks things:

1) Great anger MP (Multiple Anger levels, good named cards for Anger)

2) Named cards that give amazing levels of Utility (One that hits attached cards/setups/drills and counts as sword, the other is a force combat ender, and both give anger)

3) Great ability to tutor his cards so he becomes very consistent at what he is trying to do (Sword package/Level 3)

Because of those, I have a hard time beating him, because I have to luck sack into answers, and if the player is smart they can tutor out the counters to those answers due to sword package or level 3 with a strong anger package. If you do get a good hand, he can dip out of combat almost as easily as Yamcha can.

 

Some things to note: I was running a physical beats deck.

He gets off level 1, blocks with the red block to lower himself to 1, uses a two anger card, combat ends, he's level 3.

He's now Level 3, I get a good combat (Staredown, Dig, +2 other attacks which is what I liked to see that day) I stare down, rip his only block. He Red Destinies (Don't care, I have freezing drill in play). I dig and start opening up, he passes, I keep going, blinding gets put in discard pile, he Trunks level 3s for blinding, I skip, he masteries, I skip, he blindings out. +2 anger. (Possibly 3 anger?)

I can't remember the sequence from here. I believe I entered again, he does something that gets him to 4 anger and then uses Red Escape to banish a drill he played and ends combat, ends at level 5. He enters, I'm at 0 stages. He throws an attack (1 anger) I throw an attack he red stops it, pays the anger to get his drill in play so I can't lower anger, ascensions, I skip, then trunks slams me, gains an anger and forces the pass ends at 3 anger.

I enter for hopes so he doesn't just power and win, he blocks and powers.

Second game, I manage to wall breaker him 3 times throughout the game, not a single one even lasted an action due to Trunks Knee Slam. He MPPV'd in 2 combats. 

 

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I've actually got like, nothing to counter your points with Trunks (though I'm not hugely bothered by it, I won't lie). You've got a pretty solid point, and I can see how the manipulation of levels benefits it in Ascension. I'm not sure if it's the most powerful plays, but there is a level of consistency and control with Trunks that most other decks don't quite get away with.

Curious what your MP was with the Physical Beats though, tbh. And what style you were playing.

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On 19/07/2017 at 11:38 AM, Mysterious Youth said:

 

Regarding triggers, I dislike having to remind my opponent about any triggers.

I'm partial to the idea of 'Miss a Trigger? Tough fucking luck.'.

It's not your responsibility to play your opponent's game for them, you should not be required to keep track of their triggers, only floating effects.

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8 hours ago, Artificial Human said:

I'm partial to the idea of 'Miss a Trigger? Tough fucking luck.'.

It's not your responsibility to play your opponent's game for them, you should not be required to keep track of their triggers, only floating effects.

This is how I feel 100%. That's like in a fighting game if your opponent drops a combo and going "oh hey let me stand here and let you try that again" fuck that noise.

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11 hours ago, Artificial Human said:

I'm partial to the idea of 'Miss a Trigger? Tough fucking luck.'.

It's not your responsibility to play your opponent's game for them, you should not be required to keep track of their triggers, only floating effects.

It is your responsibility to play the game as correctly as possible though.  Missing a single trigger can change the whole game, it's why it's mandatory for both players to make sure triggers are used correctly.  

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17 hours ago, Denithan said:

I've actually got like, nothing to counter your points with Trunks (though I'm not hugely bothered by it, I won't lie). You've got a pretty solid point, and I can see how the manipulation of levels benefits it in Ascension. I'm not sure if it's the most powerful plays, but there is a level of consistency and control with Trunks that most other decks don't quite get away with.

Curious what your MP was with the Physical Beats though, tbh. And what style you were playing.

I was doing honestly an idiot and got attracted to a deck that I didn't have the time on. I was playing my take on Adept Gohan (Awakening). Thought I was going to play Ascension Yamcha, had been play testing Ascension Yamcha. Brought Adept Gohan to locals the night before we left to see how it felt. Fell in love with the deck and the power it could put out. 

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1 minute ago, ChangelingBard said:

It is your responsibility to play the game as correctly as possible though.  Missing a single trigger can change the whole game, it's why it's mandatory for both players to make sure triggers are used correctly.  

I have always been of the mindset that I try and remind people of mandatory triggers. But optional ones? That's on you. It was your choice to not use it's effect. 

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Nevermind. I think I'm done with this game. Future Gohan is nuts once he hits level 3. Unleashed makes every game a matter of "Who played Unleashed first?" Even if those things get fixed Cell is waiting in the wings as a tier 2 broken deck. MP stacks like Pikkon are still underpowered silver bullets and little more. 

Gonna go enjoy Splatoon and Splatoon 2 now. Nintendo does balance right. 

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