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Artificial Human

Worst TCG you've ever played?

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Most people here have a lot of experience with TCGs, so what do you consider to be the absolute worst?

Card Design
Definitely anything by Bushiroad. Favoritism and Power Creep out the ass. I've since given up on the company as a whole because of their attitudes in regards to card design.

Game Design
A couple of games strike me as really poorly designed. The Spoils was a decent Magic Mod till you got to the combat, where it's Speed System makes it a completely unenjoyable experience. The game can get one sided rather quickly and no matter how good the card/mana management system is, it doesn't counterbalance this. I only briefly touched One Piece, but according to my friend who played it heavily and must be one of the few people world wide to nearly have every single English card, it's way too easy to deck yourself out with how cards are managed and a 30 card deck.

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Wooo! Someone else has tried out Bushiroad's hot mess. Honestly, I think part of the issue with Bushi is that they've kind of overextended on how many card games/animes they're developing at once, so no one of their games is getting the support or time dedicated to it that it needs to really bring it to fruition. Probably a good example of this is how Stride completely outclassed Legion and Limit Break 4. Don't get me wrong, there is an element of like, needing to advance the meta and give general power creep to maintain sales. However, literally developing a card type that makes 9/10 Grade 3s (previously the most important cards in the game) neigh useless (unless they are a strider) REALLY hurt the game.

Beyond that, as Artificial noted, the power creep got so out of hand so fast with Stride. Probably starting from "The Dark" structure deck, we started getting strides whose entire purpose is to make large chunks of the card database useless. They also have a pretty bad tendency of giving large chunks of support to making useless cards for already well-supported clans instead of really spreading the love.

Another one for bad design for me (and an element of questionable game design) is probably UFS, but for a very different reason to Bushi. Universal Fighting System is a pretty neat game, but my lord is it complicated. Put simply, you can pick up one card of theirs, and you can see just how loaded the game and it's systems are. Consequently, it's REALLY not newcomer friendly or that intuitive to play (although it gets a lot better once you've adapted to the rules). This said, that over-complicated design (imo) is 100% part of why some people love it, so this one is more of a personal preference thing. So maybe this one isn't badly designed so much as very questionable in design.

To spread some love alongside the hate though, I will say that the Pokemon TCG is surprisingly one of the most well-designed ones I've played in both card design and game design. I don't really play it anymore since there isn't a fantastic (free) online sim, but it definitely holds true from when I was playing it.

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4 hours ago, Denithan said:

Wooo! Someone else has tried out Bushiroad's hot mess. Honestly, I think part of the issue with Bushi is that they've kind of overextended on how many card games/animes they're developing at once, so no one of their games is getting the support or time dedicated to it that it needs to really bring it to fruition. Probably a good example of this is how Stride completely outclassed Legion and Limit Break 4. Don't get me wrong, there is an element of like, needing to advance the meta and give general power creep to maintain sales. However, literally developing a card type that makes 9/10 Grade 3s (previously the most important cards in the game) neigh useless (unless they are a strider) REALLY hurt the game.

Beyond that, as Artificial noted, the power creep got so out of hand so fast with Stride. Probably starting from "The Dark" structure deck, we started getting strides whose entire purpose is to make large chunks of the card database useless. They also have a pretty bad tendency of giving large chunks of support to making useless cards for already well-supported clans instead of really spreading the love.

 

Yeah, I played Vanguard from ENG BT06 till ENG GBT04. I got savvy to Bushiroad's ways during Legion, probably stuck on too long. I ended up hating what the game gradually became. While it's true Stride completely outclassed Legion and Limit Break, it's not like this hadn't happened before. Breakrides and cards designed for them, which Stride pretty much is an upgrade  and more extortionate form of, were designed to outclass the original LB4 cards and The End, as throughout the original LB4 era, The End was still a problem and it caused sales issues in Japan. Breakride was arguably balanced due to being a native -1 and locked into a later part of the game than Stride. I personally was perfectly fine rocking Maelstrom and Luquier at the time and kinda regret overspending during the Breakride era. I bought into the Breakride hype. Legion shoved Breakride and LB4 out of the game. Legion was also the time when effects started getting oppressive, Soul Saver, Daikaiser and Machining Promo Legions are a bit too obnoxious when they happen.

Most of Vanguard's issues stem from The End(The Original Sin) and their marketing team. People are too quick to blame Xride itself, but PBOverlord was never a problem and Tsukuyomi would have stopped being a problem in time, same goes for MLBlaster. Neither of the later two are Xrides, but you get my point. Likewise, there was never a reason to add so many clans from a mechanical stand point, most of the later clans, in particular Narukami, Shadow, Gold and Aqua Force, all could have been archetypes of older clans. Murakumo didn't need to exist, neither did Neo Nectar. Even Great Nature could have been assimilated into another clan. You could easily slim the game down to some 15 clans from about 28.

I am glad someone else sees the problem with Grade 3, the big characters of the game, becoming nothing more than something to Stride over. I never liked that devaluing of Grade 3 and the toolbox nature of Stride. G Guardians don't fix as much as they'd like to IMO.

 

4 hours ago, Denithan said:

Another one for bad design for me (and an element of questionable game design) is probably UFS, but for a very different reason to Bushi. Universal Fighting System is a pretty neat game, but my lord is it complicated. Put simply, you can pick up one card of theirs, and you can see just how loaded the game and it's systems are. Consequently, it's REALLY not newcomer friendly or that intuitive to play (although it gets a lot better once you've adapted to the rules). This said, that over-complicated design (imo) is 100% part of why some people love it, so this one is more of a personal preference thing. So maybe this one isn't badly designed so much as very questionable in design.
 

UFS is a game I really want to like, have since I first tried it, but I just can't. I keep trying, like a crazy person, but I don't like it. I get it, but it's too busy, especially in the case of Formations, that was what I found to bog the game down. Too much to keep track of and the combat system grinds the game to a halt. Throw a punch, check it, mod the check, both players take far too long modding the attack, then finally the block is played. I'm sure if you spend enough time with your deck, the cards become second nature, but you're right, it's not intuitive to play. I don't think it's fun in practice. Amazing in theory though. That theory is why I keep looking at the blasted thing.

I do want to try the Turbo Format though. Smaller Decks means less Formations to remember and less available to mod attacks. Should make the game much faster and easier to manage.

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Oh man, this could open up a can of worms.  I've probably forgotten how to play more TCG/CCGs than a lot people here, lol. (part humblebrag, part age self-loathing)  I mean, I can get into one set wonder games like Star Trek (TOS) or Middle Earth, money-grab games like Teen Titans and Zatch Bell, for those who were in the scene in the early 2000s, there is so much fodder here.

There are a handful of games that come to mind:

Magi-Nation - This is a 50/50 and generally mine is the unpopular opinion.  The design and look of this game was top notch, and the fact they even fit an EXTREMELY obscure Transformers reference just made me that much more interested.  but I just could not get past the HUGE "win more" gameplay.  Essentially you started the game with your deck and 3 "magi".  The Magi sit in a stack and you use them one at a time.  Each one lets you grab a couple cards out of your deck to start, then you play.  At some point, your Magi will be defeated, at which point you will use your second and so on until one person runs out.  Here's the catch though, when you lose your Magi, you lose your ENTIRE BOARD.  Your opponent....doesn't.  So it's essentially a war of attrition until one person loses their first magi and then it's nothing but trying to HOPEFULLY catch up to an already set board before they kill your next magi.  Did not make it fun.

Sailor Moon - I was in high school when the anime boom happened.  DBZ, Sailor Moon, Gundam Wing, all the oldies but goldies.  Sailor Moon was big even with me and the other guys in my class.  We played RPs based on it (had maybe 5 guys and 1 girl in the party) and even tried out the card game.  Honestly, I can't even remember if we got the rules right, but for some reason we seemed to wind up in unending games.  Basically we'd be so evenly matched and the victory conditions so ambiguous that we'd just keep going for 2-3 hours before finally giving up on it.

 

I could go on, but I'd have to dig up some old rulebooks to remind me which games I hated.

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One Piece was pretty god damn terrible lol

I have fond memories of Zatch Bell but I know that is all nostalgia and not representative of the actual game.

The anime boom happened when I was in middle school (I am old lol) so I was around for that "everyone has a card game" era and I jokingly say that I collected games not cards cause I have a shit ton of cards all from different games that didn't last.

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Registered when I saw this topic, like Shoryu I too "collected games" and I've played some absolute trash.

It almost feels generous to call it a game, but there was this marvel edutainment trivia card thing called Genio that I briefly collected.

 

83960-209Fr.jpg

 

As far as actual games, Ultimate Muscle and Chaotic come to mind...albeit with the caveat that Chaotic was very mechanically interesting...the card pool was just very poorly balanced and impossible to collect properly because of a randomized stats gimmick.

 

51dpqSAqLAL._AC_UL300_SR300,300_.jpg

Basically, the five whited out boxes on that card image were numbers that would vary on a copy-by-copy basis on the same creature card, so it was possible to pull better and worse versions of the same card out of a pack.

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Chaotic sounds like it was designed by a moron. >_>

I don't think I've had the experience you guys have, I feel... common. My list is:

Played
Pokemon
DBZ
DBGT
YGO
Duel Masters
Naruto
UFS
One Piece
The Spoils
Vanguard
Buddyfight
PanZ
FoW
Magic

Owned But Not Played
Sailor Moon
Yu Yu Hakisho
SD Gundam Sangokuden Brave Battle Warriors

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The Ultimate Muscle cardgame had MTG-unset style effects in core released cards: 01S9Pk-yTIKk0qCA4mMFTQ.png

this guy got a buff if you had a cell phone.

 

There was also an annoying core mechanic where you had to flip tiny toy wrestlers around like coins, and sometimes had to land them on top of each other.

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The worst game I've played was Shaman King. It's been a long time and I'm going off of memory but I'll try to describe it. You had a character with a slide out part similar to a pull tab in a pop up book. You had a deck. Sounds simple... Very simple. The game played a lot like traditional "War" and I can't remember a single game out of about 50 or so that was fun on a strategical level. I'm absolutely certain it was a money grab trying to profit off of the ending steam of the anime.

The game that pissed me off the most was Inuyasha by Score. I actually liked its concepts and thought with work and actual effort it could have been great. However, in Score/Panini fashion they completely fucked it up and dropped it. The sad part is that Inuyasha was still popular and with proper effort and advertisement could have done well. However, I guess if that hadn't happened we may not have gotten a proper Yu Yu and Bleach game.  

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On 7/29/2017 at 10:09 PM, Majin Goo said:

The worst game I've played was Shaman King. It's been a long time and I'm going off of memory but I'll try to describe it. You had a character with a slide out part similar to a pull tab in a pop up book. You had a deck. Sounds simple... Very simple. The game played a lot like traditional "War" and I can't remember a single game out of about 50 or so that was fun on a strategical level. I'm absolutely certain it was a money grab trying to profit off of the ending steam of the anime.

The game that pissed me off the most was Inuyasha by Score. I actually liked its concepts and thought with work and actual effort it could have been great. However, in Score/Panini fashion they completely fucked it up and dropped it. The sad part is that Inuyasha was still popular and with proper effort and advertisement could have done well. However, I guess if that hadn't happened we may not have gotten a proper Yu Yu and Bleach game.  

Shaman King was fun for light casual play, but far too random mechanically for tournament play.

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15 minutes ago, Fresko said:

Shaman King was fun for light casual play, but far too random mechanically for tournament play.

That's why I pointed out "fun on a strategical level," otherwise it was worth giggles and shots. I actually think a few games one of us almost died taking shots. 

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I just remembered something about Bushiroad's card design

Kind of kicking a dead horse, but to sum up, they released an archtype just before the stride era in Vanguard that kind of initiated the Stride era. The archtype was called Deletors, and their basic mechanic was to flip down your opponent's vanguard (leader, to use a Dragon Ball Super equivalent). While flipped face-down, the opponent's vanguard was treated as having 0 power and no effects, and this would last until your opponent's end phase. Now, because of how strong that is (and it was at the time), these effects were expensive. We're looking at counterblast 3 to just Delete the opponent's vanguard in most cases.

Literally a couple of weeks after Deletors were released, Bushiroad released the first Stride expansion. And the rulings were that if you stride over a deleted vanguard, it gets undeleted, and then the stride gains the power of your vanguard. Stride also got a heap of support so that it was basically a free mechanic, with an insane number of ways to proc it. Which basically meant that Delete is a null-effect beyond beatdown purposes.
So we had an archtype that was literally good for 2 weeks, and then got made completely redundant by new rulings and card types.

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On ‎7‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 7:09 PM, Majin Goo said:

The worst game I've played was Shaman King. It's been a long time and I'm going off of memory but I'll try to describe it. You had a character with a slide out part similar to a pull tab in a pop up book. You had a deck. Sounds simple... Very simple. The game played a lot like traditional "War" and I can't remember a single game out of about 50 or so that was fun on a strategical level. I'm absolutely certain it was a money grab trying to profit off of the ending steam of the anime.

The game that pissed me off the most was Inuyasha by Score. I actually liked its concepts and thought with work and actual effort it could have been great. However, in Score/Panini fashion they completely fucked it up and dropped it. The sad part is that Inuyasha was still popular and with proper effort and advertisement could have done well. However, I guess if that hadn't happened we may not have gotten a proper Yu Yu and Bleach game.  

Wow, Shaman King, that brings me back.  Megacon 2004 in Orlando.  Same year as the GT regionals I attended there (still have the little card binder, though it's a little worse for wear.).  A bunch of us didn't have anything to do on the off hours of the regional, so we went to the room next door to try this new Shaman King game.  It was a sealed event, I went 3-0, but there weren't really prizes.  Don't remember much about how it played, aside from the fact it had 3 stats in different colors (Red Yellow green?).  And based on some other cards I got a few years ago, they made an ATLA game using the same system.

 

Inuyasha was Score trying to branch out further after the successes of DBZ and YYH.  Unfortunately DBZ was on the outs since they were running out of source material and YYH was in mid swing, which is to say the power creep was hitting it HARD after some shady dealings with IQ and Sager.  The Inuyasha engine was fun and interesting (and Sango/Bae was viable and oh so lovely) but it was ridiculously broken from the get go.  They tried to fix it, but the damage was done.  Bleach was a marginal improvement, but the implosion of their other 3 games all at once had already rung the death knell for Score Entertainment.

That actually reminds me of another doomed game from that time period, also released by score, this time during MegaCon 2005 (alongside the one and only YYH Regionals, mere months before the game died): Dragon Booster.  Canadian CG cartoon, lasted 2 seasons and just didn't catch on.  The game, if memory serves, was annoyingly simple and random.  Had one set and done.

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On 8/10/2017 at 4:47 PM, Stryyder said:

Bleach was a marginal improvement, but the implosion of their other 3 games all at once had already rung the death knell for Score Entertainment.

That actually reminds me of another doomed game from that time period, also released by score, this time during MegaCon 2005 (alongside the one and only YYH Regionals, mere months before the game died): Dragon Booster.  Canadian CG cartoon, lasted 2 seasons and just didn't catch on.  The game, if memory serves, was annoyingly simple and random.  Had one set and done.

Bleach was an amazing game through set 4. Set 5 saw serious power creep. I won GA Reg by winning nearly every game on turn 3-4 (Outside of finals, which took us over an hour for a best of 3). The last set continued the power creep, and every deck was beyond broken. Every top deck had the ability to cheat the rules of the game far beyond what any game should be able to do. The unreleased set 7 makes sets 5-6 look like garbage. Though I have worked on making Bleach not broken, and actually fun to play casually (The novelty of playing solitaire until someone wins on turn 3 wears off pretty fast), and it's pretty enjoyable. It's been my favorite game since it was released as I was a Magic player since almost the beginning (And Bleach is basically Magic), and I loved the Bleach ip.

 

Dragon Booster as a show ended up blowing up in India, and some company over there bought out all of the unsold stock that Score still had.

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Unfortunately YYH went the same way.  Somewhere just north of the 3rd set, Gateway, the power creep just hit overdrive.  EVERY card had long, winding effect text and it was just too easy to play dozens of cards each turn.  Essentially they used the Spirit Energy mechanic, very similar to the Meta Points mechanic that MetaX has, but there were too many cards that gained Spirit Energy and even more that let you draw cards. 

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It almost sounds as if they knew their time was coming and decided to start ramping up production for dream cards and strategies they wanted to do. 

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I'm not one to give into conspiracies, but I'm almost certain that Panini Corporate knew there was a chance they weren't going to take the license. I don't believe the whole development team knew, but I find it hard to believe for a second Aik didn't know. 

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On 8/11/2017 at 7:24 PM, Fresko said:

Bleach was an amazing game through set 4. Set 5 saw serious power creep. I won GA Reg by winning nearly every game on turn 3-4 (Outside of finals, which took us over an hour for a best of 3). The last set continued the power creep, and every deck was beyond broken. Every top deck had the ability to cheat the rules of the game far beyond what any game should be able to do. The unreleased set 7 makes sets 5-6 look like garbage. Though I have worked on making Bleach not broken, and actually fun to play casually (The novelty of playing solitaire until someone wins on turn 3 wears off pretty fast), and it's pretty enjoyable. It's been my favorite game since it was released as I was a Magic player since almost the beginning (And Bleach is basically Magic), and I loved the Bleach ip.

 

Dragon Booster as a show ended up blowing up in India, and some company over there bought out all of the unsold stock that Score still had.

I f***ing LOVED the Bleach game.

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