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Artificial Human

Why don't Living Card Games get more popular?

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On 8/5/2017 at 6:25 PM, soviet prince said:

LCG just fell like a board game to me

I could understand that about deckbuilding games like Resident Evil, Legendary, etc, but LCG's are the same as CCG's but without the collecting. You build constructed decks and play them at tournaments. The only actual difference is the collectible aspect.

 

On 8/4/2017 at 1:52 AM, soviet prince said:

getting everything in one box is to easy, there is no chase. I also like that the things I buy have some value, I like opening packs and wondering whats in it, where you dont get that with a lcg.

That's fine for some people. Some want value in their cards so they can look at it as an investment. Some players want to play multiple games. Financially that gets obscenely expensive if you want to make sure to stay competitive. Sure there are decks here and there that are far more budget worthy than others, but in the end you tend to spend a ton. LCG's are great as side games to play as you don't have that larger investment needed. But to each their own. No one is wrong, everyone wants something different out of it. I personally see the minimal investment in an LCG as paying for a game like I have for non-competitive games. I pay money for games on steam, I pay for WoW expansions and subscription, I pay for LoL skins, I pay for board games. None of these items have any form or return on investment as they arent collectible (Well, most arent. I guess some board games could be). I'm paying for the game, the entertainment, and the price set well for that. CCG's are as expensive as they are to get into due to paying for more than the game and the entertainment. You have something that holds value while I may not. Im fine with it as it generally equals about $100 a year for my Star Wars purchases, and that's spread out over like 6 or so small purchases every couple months. I'm fine owning the complete collection of the game to play casually if I really enjoy it.

 

On 8/4/2017 at 1:52 AM, soviet prince said:

I mean if your playing a lcg why not just print out the cards and save you 60 bucks.

You can do this for any game if you want to play at home. But just like any other game, if you want to play in actual events, you have to buy the product. And with how cheap LCG's are to play, why would you not support the game if you enjoy it? This kind of mindset is what kills games. If you like something and want to see it continue, you support it. It doesn't exactly break my bank to spend $15 every 2 months for a Star Wars Force Pack.

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idk how to really explain it, there is a different thrill with ccgs then lcgs. not saying lcg's are bad but I hate when ppl say ccg's are awful because they require investment. Most hobbies do require money to do esp if you want to play with the serious crowd.

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1 hour ago, soviet prince said:

idk how to really explain it, there is a different thrill with ccgs then lcgs. not saying lcg's are bad but I hate when ppl say ccg's are awful because they require investment. Most hobbies do require money to do esp if you want to play with the serious crowd.

LCGs require an investment. We just discussed with you how we want to invest in them because we want the tangible real cards. They just don't require the same level and type of investment. I'm not even sure your comparison is truly apt because with any other hobby, you just buy your gear straight out, you don't have to buy lottery tickets each time.

Think of it like this, a CCG is like a Gachapon Machine. You'll spend a ton trying to get what you want, but eventually you get it. An LCG is just buying a set of figurines. Larger initual investment, smaller in the long run, no addictive component.

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The problem isn't that trading/collectible card games require investment. It's the business model of most card games that are awful. Living card games require investment too, but at a far more reasonable price.  What others are saying is that living card games kind of prove that this hobby doesn't have to cost as much as most card games do.

You seem to imply that competitive living card game players aren't a "serious crowd". They spend money just like any card gamer and can be just as competitive as people from Magic or Yu-Gi-Oh!. They just didn't have to break the bank to do it. If I need to spend copious amounts of money to join the "serious crowd" of Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh! as their corporate suits dictate, cheaper options start to seem more attractive.

Your "different thrill" comes from something independent of the games themselves. There's nothing inherently different between a living card game and a trading/collectible one except cost. They're all card games first and foremost. You seem to be arguing from a standpoint that has nothing to do with gameplay or quality. It's clear you simply have a different mindset and have enough money to take a loss on packs with garbage rares in exchange for one or two packs with high end cards.

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I don't disagree with that, but he's saying if you want to hang with the "big boys", you better be prepared to shell out a lot of cash to fund an abusive business model. It's a privilege reserved for those with the proper finances. Something these companies could rectify to gain more customers, but refuse to because people still pay into it as is and that's okay.

It's why I'm interested in how the Super card game will fare in a few years if it lasts that long. While some super rares are clearly more desirable than others, the small amount of them and most generous pull rate are pluses that I hope they continue with. Will the interest and supposed increase in players who get into the game but buy less product because they don't need it outweigh the usual suspects who indiscriminately buy boxes and not finish playsets? Find out next year on Dragon Ball Super!

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See, that's what I was waiting for.  Whenever SP enters a thread talking about the "thrill" of pack cracking, it's always entertaining.

 

Seriously though, MY is on the ball.  CCG model is nothing but legalized gambling.  Sometimes you break it big with only a small investment, a good chunk of the time you break even, but the majority of the time what you put in doesn't equal what you get out, regardless of how it feels.

Does that mean I'll stop buying into CCGs?  Probably not.  I already got 2 boxes of MX and 3 of DBS (both at near MSRP).  Even those of us who realize the scam are still drawn in by it.

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5 hours ago, Stryyder said:

See, that's what I was waiting for.  Whenever SP enters a thread talking about the "thrill" of pack cracking, it's always entertaining.

 

Seriously though, MY is on the ball.  CCG model is nothing but legalized gambling.  Sometimes you break it big with only a small investment, a good chunk of the time you break even, but the majority of the time what you put in doesn't equal what you get out, regardless of how it feels.

Does that mean I'll stop buying into CCGs?  Probably not.  I already got 2 boxes of MX and 3 of DBS (both at near MSRP).  Even those of us who realize the scam are still drawn in by it.

I think most people knew who you were talking about when you mentioned him earlier sadly.

I've been through a lot of different games and LCG's and DBG's (besides RPG's) have always been my favorite. The problem comes down to finding players. When I crack open Star Realm, people will play. The game takes 5 minutes to teach and games are finished in 20 minutes. It's an extremely well done DBG. The problem? As fun and competitive as it is, people don't want to buy it themselves or play it long term because of the hold TCG's have. I've met people with the idea that it would make them a casual (which has become a dirty word somehow), I've met people who are worried they'll miss out on the next big thing from their favorite TCG, and I've met people who have a gambling addiction and can't help cracking packs every time they have an opportunity to buy (I use to be this person).

From a customer standpoint, LCG's have the better business model and can offer an extremely large pool of competitive players vs. what most average locals have which is usually a few heavily competitive players (that can afford to dig deep in their pockets) that dominate and a large number of casual players that are just having fun with what they have. LCG communities also deal with theft and "collection elitist" a lot less and every one that I've had the pleasure of visiting is extremely welcoming and excited for new players. With an LCG, I just need to buy a box for about $65-$100 and I'm caught up and ready to play. All that's left is to learn, study the meta, and practice.

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just because it's not easy to get don't make it a bad business model, LCG just don't fell the same to me, I tried a few and it's not my thing. I like the challenge of chasing the cards, finding a good trade, and I defiantly like having something that has value and not just a slip of paper.  if it all in the box the magic of it all is gone, it's not part of the gameplay but it's part of the experience.  People these days seem to want everything handed to them for a lil bit of nothing or it's a bad business model. 

 

the best example I can think of is lcg is like an RPG that has your main character at the highest level and all the puzzles solved for you, it makes a boring game when all the pieces are already there for you.

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27 minutes ago, soviet prince said:

the best example I can think of is lcg is like an RPG that has your main character at the highest level and all the puzzles solved for you, it makes a boring game when all the pieces are already there for you.

The RPG comparison is a bad comparison. Unless you cheat, in most RPG's both table top and digital, your character takes days worth of hours to get to max level and puzzles are inherently challenging as part of the fun.

27 minutes ago, soviet prince said:

People these days seem to want everything handed to them for a lil bit of nothing or it's a bad business model. 

I don't think anyone is knocking the experience of chasing cards, what sets people indifferent to your opinion that you still don't seem to get is assuming that people who would prefer TCG's move closer to LCG's "...want everything handed to them..." when for most it's actually quite the opposite. Most of us are looking at the potential in competitive environments when every one is an equal in terms of collection. The idea that people are winning and losing entirely based on deck building and piloting skills vs. your normal local scene that usually has it's top players based on luck pulls and money sink.

Here's a better comparison. You have two major types of MMO's nowadays. You have P2W or Acquire and the Subscription model. P2W is comparable to TCG's in that the more money you sink, the more access you have, the more advantage you have over someone that didn't sink as much money. Where subscription base (and yes, they still exist and thrive) is comparable to LCG's in that you pay a periodic charge to move on, everyone is on equal footing in terms to content access and advantage is entirely based on time spent, skill developed, and natural talent.

Both spend money, though people that are heavy into P2W or Acquire tend to spend more money then they would on a subscription based model. The Subscription base player doesn't expect everything to be handed to them, they just prefer that the challenge of competition be based solely on time spent vs. a combination of money and time spent. Essentially, they don't want to be at a disadvantage because they bought 50 less packs then the guy they are facing which is a factual problem in most TCG's. 

Try to remember, most of us are coming from a competitive standpoint, not a collector's standpoint. So return value isn't the most important to us and "...everything handed to them..." is a logical fallacy based on an assumption that applies to a different argument all together. Most every competitive player will agree, losing to someone because they pulled better cards in their packs isn't ideal nor is it a test of actual skill.

TL:DR If you left out the "...everything handed to them..." part you bring up in every discussion that follows this same track, most people would probably agree with you and see your point as extremely valid. That's not to say, some people couldn't try to lay there's a bit less stern, but given that is your constant go to, you should understand some of them being frustrated with it. 

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You claim to have tried some living card games and didn't like them. That's perfectly fine. However when you say it's a "challenge" to get the good cards, there's no challenge to it. Pulling Spheres is not skill-based. If you have money to buy them or get lucky, you will have them. If you're going to go after playsets and the best cards anyway, why waste all that time, money, and effort except that you seem to like wasting time, money, and effort? You must be a huge fan of freemium games and downloadable content then.

It's not a matter of people wanting things handed to them. If anything, your comment about the serious crowd makes them seem to be the entitled ones holding up a "no commoners allowed" sign. I'm not a serious player if I don't have the money? Why is that a good thing? You really believe this business model is the best way to make money and attract new players?

Should Monopoly adopt the card game business model and break it up into randomized packs too? "Man, that guy has way more get out of jail free cards than I do. And my iron token doesn't stand a chance against his shoe."

The cards in a living card game don't magically fuse into a meta deck. You still have to put in the work, research, and playtesting to build the decks and master them. Do you think that living card game boxes have the cards pre-sorted into the best decks or something? Where do you think the challenge in chess comes from? You don't have a sideboard or anything. The pieces you see are the pieces you get. It ALWAYS comes down to you and your skill.

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4 hours ago, soviet prince said:

 

the best example I can think of is lcg is like an RPG that has your main character at the highest level and all the puzzles solved for you, it makes a boring game when all the pieces are already there for you.

Uh... no? You seem to really like bad analogies. The 'puzzle' isn't solved for you. That's Net Decking. Highest Level? Well if by that you mean have all the maximum amount of points in a Perk system, sure, why not.

Again. I like the Gatchapon vs Buying the Figure analogy, because that's what the entire argument is, gambling vs buying the thing straight out.

4 hours ago, soviet prince said:

 People these days seem to want everything handed to them for a lil bit of nothing or it's a bad business model. 

Abusive Business Model. TCG's are abusive. Bad? Not really. It does some things better for both getting people in and the company's bottom line.

Question. Since you seem to believe that buying a product is an accomplishment, if we were bitching that an LCG Starter was 1000 USD, something you had to actually save up to, would you argue the same? We're complaining because it's not being handed to us?

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I liked having every card for PanZ.  They were worth money.  Now they are worth less than 25% as much after the game died.  And no one in my area plays anymore so the cards sit in my closet doing nothing.  Value.

But that DC Deckbuilding game that I paid $40 for (well, plus expansions) that I pull out every couple weeks so we can play?  Still enjoying that 5 years later.

 

I can definitely tell which one is worthless at this point.

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19 hours ago, Stryyder said:

I liked having every card for PanZ.  They were worth money.  Now they are worth less than 25% as much after the game died.  And no one in my area plays anymore so the cards sit in my closet doing nothing.  Value.

But that DC Deckbuilding game that I paid $40 for (well, plus expansions) that I pull out every couple weeks so we can play?  Still enjoying that 5 years later.

 

I can definitely tell which one is worthless at this point.

This is the hardest point to drive home. There are a lot of TCG's that are not MtG, Yugioh, or Pokémon that are dead and worthless. Some of which are considered successful. Few people play them and you'd be hard pressed to find a game even with those that have large collections. 

But my LCG's and DBG's, I pull one out and can easily fill a table. Tons of people in my area still have their PanZ cards, I'm the only one willing to put effort into playing, but I bring in an LCG supported or not and people take the time to learn and play. 

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Same for me, but that's into the board game realm.  I've got bookshelves full of games and run game nights with 3-4 different crowds within a month.  It's been a big investment for me, as the one who has the biggest game library to contribute from, but it's a great time no matter what we pull off the shelf.

Even with current games, Pokémon, DBS and MetaX, I can't just go to the shop and find a game, they have their own specific nights or days.  Only 1 or 2 people will just play any day, and playing against those same people gets boring.

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I'm still playing Pan Z, but that's mostly till I get to play everything I couldn't afford/wasn't around for when the game was alive and that's only with one friend. After I play everything, I can't imagine the game would hold much interest. For all the 'Oh my God. 3 Victory Conditions, such variance.', the Z engine, at least the way it's been developed, becomes very, very samey very very quickly. I'm already fucking tired of MPPV and Physical Beats decks, they all operate essentially the same.

But for other dead games or even games I've quit? I don't see playing FoW again, or Pokemon, YGO, Duel Masters, basically any of them. The only way I'd touch Vanguard again is in a custom format. I don't even see getting the opportunity to play Dragon Ball Super. 

I want to play Magic again, but nope. Nothing on during times I can play. :/

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13 hours ago, Stryyder said:

I liked having every card for PanZ.  They were worth money.  Now they are worth less than 25% as much after the game died.  And no one in my area plays anymore so the cards sit in my closet doing nothing.  Value.

But that DC Deckbuilding game that I paid $40 for (well, plus expansions) that I pull out every couple weeks so we can play?  Still enjoying that 5 years later.

 

I can definitely tell which one is worthless at this point.

you could do the same with the ccg cards, I am sure the game is still playable.

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On 8/9/2017 at 10:09 PM, soviet prince said:

the best example I can think of is lcg is like an RPG that has your main character at the highest level and all the puzzles solved for you, it makes a boring game when all the pieces are already there for you.

This is probably the worst example I've ever seen. You have access to all of the cards in a CCG as long as you're willing to pay. The puzzle to solve is the meta. Regardless if you get all the cards in a box or if you stare at singles online, you still have to playtest and figure out a deck that works.

I understand the chase, but at a certain point, it just becomes tiring. I've already hit the age where that has happened. I make good money now, so I have no incentive to be the me from a decade ago. Going to my Magic local 4-5 time a week nickel and diming trades to squeak every tiny ounce of value out of it. I enjoyed it back then, but now I see it as tiring and time consuming.

But if that's what you like, then have at it. I personally prefer to just play the game. It doesn't really matter if it's an LCG or a CCG, as long as I like the mechanics. That's what I look at, the actual game itself. I enjoyed Magic's Legacy format, so I dropped $1500 on a deck. Now I enjoy the mechanics of some LCG's, so I pay a lot less for them. There's no chase for me because I have a bank account. All that's left is the game, which is all I ever cared about, I just had more time to waste flipping through trade binders.

My need for competition has also died out over my 20+ yrs gaming. When I play something, I do have to have the best version I can make, but I feel less need to compete in events. This is also part of falling away from CCG's. If I'm not willing to make time for events, yet I can't stand my deck not being optimal, the cost of the game far outweighs it's use.

At the end of the day the only differences in the two games are more OP due to more profit, the ability to gamble (Opening packs), and trading. I don't really care about events anymore, I just want to enjoy well played games, so prizing isn't a factor to me. I never took the gamble in CCG's with packs. Not that I didn't love cracking packs, but it's a terrible use of money most of the time. You rarely get what you want, and most of the time the value wasn't worth what you paid. I rarely bought boxes, and any packs I won were either used to draft, or traded for actual cards I needed. And trading is something I'm glad my time is taken up with anymore. I'd lose whole nights at the card shop running in circles trading with people. Now I can buy what I want. I'm glad I dont have to deal with it anymore. Granted LCG's do have event exclusive promos. There are a couple star wars promos that are $100+, but most are fairly cheap.

So I don't mind the investment in a game who's mechanics I legitimately enjoy (If I have the time to play it). But a game that has a low investment is definitely welcomed.

But if cracking packs and chasing trades is an important part of the entire experience to you, then great! It's different for everyone. I'd guess most LCG players are in the same boat I'm in, or the LCG is a 2nd-3rd game for them due to the low investment needs.

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9 hours ago, soviet prince said:

you could do the same with the ccg cards, I am sure the game is still playable.

The game is indeed playable.....except no one plays it....save for a very small group that lives NO WHERE near me.

That was my whole point.

Dead CCG - you just spent thousands of dollars on cards you might now use once a year at a huge event you have to pay a lot of money to attend.

Board game/DBG - you just spent $40 on something you can pull out at any time and people can/will join in.

 

 

This is one of the key problems with a collectible model.  Once the card value declines, you lose 90% of your crowd.  Pretty much overnight DBZ went from players in nearly every area to minimal players and EVERYONE dumping their stuff on Ebay.  Once the cards you spent thousands of dollars on to play in high level events and win big prizes are now near worthless, no one wants to play, aside from a small few trying to keep it alive.  How many games are still being played extensively since dying?  How many have come back to the extent that DBZ did?

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1 hour ago, Stryyder said:

How many games are still being played extensively since dying? 

Raw Deal and Anachronism I know still have an active player base. Granted it is only REALLY played at big events but I know they exist.

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7 hours ago, Stryyder said:

This is one of the key problems with a collectible model.  Once the card value declines, you lose 90% of your crowd.  Pretty much overnight DBZ went from players in nearly every area to minimal players and EVERYONE dumping their stuff on Ebay.  Once the cards you spent thousands of dollars on to play in high level events and win big prizes are now near worthless, no one wants to play, aside from a small few trying to keep it alive.  How many games are still being played extensively since dying?  How many have come back to the extent that DBZ did?

That's actually a really sad reality. When things die, no one wants to keep on the memory. I suspect it's got a lot to do with when games die, it's always after the company being silent and things end on a bad note. The community goes hostile and community leaders become fascist in nature, except TCGTopTier as Jarrett felt as burned as we did. 'All the death talk will be silenced, those who speak it will be banned.' is how Kaijudo went down, how Duel Masters went down, how the Retro side of Pan Z went down and is how Force of Will is at the moment.

I suspect this is also why 'Revived' games don't do well. Burned bridges, hurt feelings, having to rely on nostalgia. The only revived game I can think of that's not dead in TCG form is UFS and I wouldn't call it's numbers healthy. None of them, even VS in LCG form, do well. I think it's easy to understand why Hasbro rebranded Duel Masters on the relaunch.

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4 hours ago, Artificial Human said:

...Retro side of Pan Z went down...

Yeah, I wish they would find another way to push FanZ. I still like the concept of FanZ and plan to keep a deck built for larger events but Retro right now is just a troll fest with most legitimate conversations being buried or picked apart by a few who don't seem to know what they're actually rebelling against.

4 hours ago, Artificial Human said:

I suspect this is also why 'Revived' games don't do well. Burned bridges, hurt feelings, having to rely on nostalgia. The only revived game I can think of that's not dead in TCG form is UFS and I wouldn't call it's numbers healthy. None of them, even VS in LCG form, do well. I think it's easy to understand why Hasbro rebranded Duel Masters on the relaunch.

Revived games don't do well. I play Heroclix and technically it's a revival since it's original existence was pure shit and they had to completely overhaul it to make it actually fun. Even then, it barely hangs on in most areas. This month marks its 2nd overhaul when Thor comes out. A complete re-balance and supposed rewrite of the rules to make the game approachable. Hoping it works because Heroclix is the perfect game for a massive IP pool and all they need is the popularity to pull in the IP's. 

12 hours ago, Stryyder said:

This is one of the key problems with a collectible model.  Once the card value declines, you lose 90% of your crowd.  Pretty much overnight DBZ went from players in nearly every area to minimal players and EVERYONE dumping their stuff on Ebay.  Once the cards you spent thousands of dollars on to play in high level events and win big prizes are now near worthless, no one wants to play, aside from a small few trying to keep it alive.  

Literally, overnight everyone I knew was quitting. I took in two collections, one I got for free, the other I got for 3 DnD books and he had around $450 worth the cards even after the Z Market crashed. I'm actually planning on building a LCG out of Commons and Uncommon.  My goal is to have 4 sets of everything Common and Uncommon, have a few friends over, set the timer for 1 hour for deck building and then throw down a few games. 

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