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Artificial Human

Why don't Living Card Games get more popular?

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4 hours ago, Artificial Human said:

I suspect this is also why 'Revived' games don't do well. Burned bridges, hurt feelings, having to rely on nostalgia. The only revived game I can think of that's not dead in TCG form is UFS and I wouldn't call it's numbers healthy. None of them, even VS in LCG form, do well. I think it's easy to understand why Hasbro rebranded Duel Masters on the relaunch.

New VS's problem is that it's 90% new mechanics, not enough of the old game to keep old fans happy.  We used to get 20 people every Friday for a damn MIDNIGHT tourney, and the next day we would have 30-40 for the reg Saturday tourney.  Now it's just me and the shop owner.  

Game of Thrones LCG was good for the first set, then powercreeped hard with every expansion. 

I had high hopes for the L5R revival, but so far it looks far too changed, and rebooting 20 years of stories seems wrong to me.

So far PanZ is the only one that seemed to do revival correctly, save it's horrible horrible ending of course.

 

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On 8/11/2017 at 7:45 PM, Artificial Human said:

I suspect this is also why 'Revived' games don't do well. Burned bridges, hurt feelings, having to rely on nostalgia. The only revived game I can think of that's not dead in TCG form is UFS and I wouldn't call it's numbers healthy. None of them, even VS in LCG form, do well. I think it's easy to understand why Hasbro rebranded Duel Masters on the relaunch.

Just to clarify, UFS never died it just went from one company to another. It has been continuously running, just under two different companies.

The other thing about UFS is that its numbers are deceiving. There are a lot of people that play, they are just very spread out. Which is different from most TCGs.

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On 8/12/2017 at 0:52 AM, ChangelingBard said:

New VS's problem is that it's 90% new mechanics, not enough of the old game to keep old fans happy.  We used to get 20 people every Friday for a damn MIDNIGHT tourney, and the next day we would have 30-40 for the reg Saturday tourney.  Now it's just me and the shop owner.  

Game of Thrones LCG was good for the first set, then powercreeped hard with every expansion. 

I had high hopes for the L5R revival, but so far it looks far too changed, and rebooting 20 years of stories seems wrong to me.

So far PanZ is the only one that seemed to do revival correctly, save it's horrible horrible ending of course.

 

This is the reason I didnt play VS. A buddy bought me the base set since I missed GenCon that year, then we learned how different it was. I wouldnt mind some of the new mechanics if they had left in some of the old ones that were removed. Like playing Plot Twists from the resource row. I think that was a genius way to do a resource system. That was my biggest gripe about their changes. Havent even touched the base set. If I want to play VS, I have a friend who still has multiple decks. Ill just play the old game.

Im ready for L5R. I never played the old game. I was always interested in it, but always had too many hobbies for how little free time I had. I dont know the mechanics anyways, so this wont really change anything to me. I just hope they dont ruin it. Fantasy Flight has a problem with power creep, then correcting it with more power on the opposite side. Seeing that this is a beloved ip that has a cult following, hopefully they take great care with it. Though they do have Star Wars, too, and that has a pretty big power problem.

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On 8/11/2017 at 7:45 PM, Artificial Human said:

That's actually a really sad reality. When things die, no one wants to keep on the memory. I suspect it's got a lot to do with when games die, it's always after the company being silent and things end on a bad note. The community goes hostile and community leaders become fascist in nature, except TCGTopTier as Jarrett felt as burned as we did. 'All the death talk will be silenced, those who speak it will be banned.' is how Kaijudo went down, how Duel Masters went down, how the Retro side of Pan Z went down and is how Force of Will is at the moment.

I suspect this is also why 'Revived' games don't do well. Burned bridges, hurt feelings, having to rely on nostalgia. The only revived game I can think of that's not dead in TCG form is UFS and I wouldn't call it's numbers healthy. None of them, even VS in LCG form, do well. I think it's easy to understand why Hasbro rebranded Duel Masters on the relaunch.

Part of it is that there are so many other games to move on to. If you know the game is going to die, and you want to support a live game that has OP so you have consistent events to go to, there's no reason not to sell a lot of your stuff. You need to a starting investment to get into a new game. The best way to do that is selling your old game. I still have multiple OldZ decks, old Retro format (Basically just Focused ScoreZ since I have no Retro virtual cards in my deck), and my old Expanded Broly Energetic. Broly hasnt been used since the expanded format was actual Score OP, and my Focused Z deck hasnt been used since the last Retro event I went to like 4-5 yrs ago. I could get some decent cash for stuff that's in them, like Fatherly Advice, tons of foils (My Buu Blue is completely foiled) to put into another hobby. I would have by now, but Im too lazy. Though Im probably gonna sell all my non deck promo/ur/foils soon.

Same with Bleach. I have a GIGANTIC Bleach collection.15+ of nearly all subset cards, 10+ of a lot of the UR's, tons of promos and foils, nearly a playset of the game plus more. Since the game died, Ive only played a few matches with one person.

Part of it can also be that you rarely get new players. Dead CCG's are not casual friendly for someone to pickup if they havent played before. This is why I tend to have a few casual multiplayer games with me, like Exploding Kittens, Sushi Go, or Flux. Very simple games that take hardly a minute to learn. Nostalgic games are great when you have others near you who want to enjoy the depth of mechanics that a good CCG can give you, since you generally have more mechanics, in depth rulings, and deck strategies to learn.

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If Wizards of the Coast and Hasbro does what I think they might do they could potentially be wanting to do away with the Trading Card Game / Collectible Card Game business model altogether in favor of the Living Card Game business model by devaluing the entire history of MTG as a means of releasing a product that contains nothing but reprints of all the Reserved List cards including the Power Nine and pass it off as Iconic Masters due to recent forced buyouts of expensive cards and insider trading with the game nearing it's 25th Anniversary which would be a slap in the face to MTG players who've already invested in Standard, Modern, Legacy, and EDH/Commander.

The only way they can pull that off is by rescinding the Reserved List altogether which a lot of MTG players are debating whether If it's healthy or detrimental to the game overall similar to the Chronicles conundrum that happened way back when the reality is that both players and collectors would end up getting screwed over in the process and since cards would no longer have any monetary value there would no longer be any incentive to play MTG in any format as it would create a domino effect within the Secondary Market affecting other Trading Card Games / Collectible Card Games currently in circulation right now by putting those companies out of business as an end result.

So does this mean that Wizards of the Coast and Hasbro already have a Living Card Game in the works to replace MTG? If they did they wouldn't have kept it a secret this year at GenCon especially when L5R is getting a Living Card Game revival as they probably don't want to risk competing in the Living Card Game market when they're already at the top of their game when it comes to the Trading Card Game / Collectible Card Game market so why stop now? Do they really want to run the risk of dumping an old business model for a new one that could potentially be less profitable for them in the long run that isn't designed to be a money pit for consumers?

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On 8/20/2017 at 7:24 PM, Card Slinger J said:

If Wizards of the Coast and Hasbro does what I think they might do they could potentially be wanting to do away with the Trading Card Game / Collectible Card Game business model altogether in favor of the Living Card Game business model by devaluing the entire history of MTG as a means of releasing a product that contains nothing but reprints of all the Reserved List cards including the Power Nine and pass it off as Iconic Masters due to recent forced buyouts of expensive cards and insider trading with the game nearing it's 25th Anniversary which would be a slap in the face to MTG players who've already invested in Standard, Modern, Legacy, and EDH/Commander.

The only way they can pull that off is by rescinding the Reserved List altogether which a lot of MTG players are debating whether If it's healthy or detrimental to the game overall similar to the Chronicles conundrum that happened way back when the reality is that both players and collectors would end up getting screwed over in the process and since cards would no longer have any monetary value there would no longer be any incentive to play MTG in any format as it would create a domino effect within the Secondary Market affecting other Trading Card Games / Collectible Card Games currently in circulation right now by putting those companies out of business as an end result.

So does this mean that Wizards of the Coast and Hasbro already have a Living Card Game in the works to replace MTG? If they did they wouldn't have kept it a secret this year at GenCon especially when L5R is getting a Living Card Game revival as they probably don't want to risk competing in the Living Card Game market when they're already at the top of their game when it comes to the Trading Card Game / Collectible Card Game market so why stop now? Do they really want to run the risk of dumping an old business model for a new one that could potentially be less profitable for them in the long run that isn't designed to be a money pit for consumers?

Those run on sentences tho. o_O

 

Seriously, WotC is not going to take their huge money pit and drop it down to LCG.  there is no reason at all to do that.  If we needed any other evidence, they just announced a HUGE shift back to Core+3 format.  Why would they do that and then swap to LCG before the new release format has even begun?

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On 8/22/2017 at 7:50 AM, sh0ryu_repp4 said:

WotC makes so much damn money off of MTG why would they do that?

So that players would stop complaining about how collectors are making it hard for them to actually play the game due to the Reserved List, short print runs, and other factors. Not to mention that competitive players who play Standard, Modern, and Legacy won't have to worry about supply and demand issues from casual players who play Commander.

I also heard rumors of a Class Action Lawsuit filed against Wizards of the Coast by MTG judges who say that they aren't getting paid for their job when they aren't even employees who work for the company. What's even scarier is that If Wizards of the Coast loses control of the DCI to a non-profit organization it would invalidate the Reserved List because Wizards of the Coast is no longer in charge of official tournaments.

If that happens to be the case it would give more leverage for Wizards of the Coast's R&D to reprint cards from the Reserved List that would end up hurting the collectors who are keeping the game alive in the long run. The people who play know that the game can't survive without collectors stabilizing supply and demand in the Secondary Market.

On 8/22/2017 at 8:36 AM, Artificial Human said:

The game has been in the shitter since they stopped the Core-1-2-3 yearly release schedule, and the meta prior to the shift was pretty garbage too.

There has been a rise of buyouts recently due to a lack of Expected Value in recent sets.

On 8/22/2017 at 10:00 AM, Stryyder said:

Those run on sentences tho. o_O

 

Seriously, WotC is not going to take their huge money pit and drop it down to LCG.  there is no reason at all to do that.  If we needed any other evidence, they just announced a HUGE shift back to Core+3 format.  Why would they do that and then swap to LCG before the new release format has even begun?

You really had to criticize me about run on sentences again? -_-

Anyway you make a valid point though, last I checked on the contents for Iconic Masters there's not enough cards in the set to devalue the entire game since the Reserved List contains more than 200+ cards dating from Alpha/Beta/Unlimited through Mercadian Masques. However there have been cases where they've gotten away with reprinting Reserved List cards regardless If they've been reprinted in a previous Core Set.

Otherwise the set would be too expensive to purchase as the MSRP price would be through the roof not to mention how expensive booster packs would be compared to Modern and Eternal Masters where boosters were like $10-15+ a pack. There's just no incentive to do so when it would anger the collectors who are keeping the game alive compared to the people who actually play that struggle to obtain expensive cards in their decks.

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What do people think of Epic Card Game's distribution method? I think they've cracked the code imo.

You buy the starter, it's singleton, but the entire starter set is in there. You buy 3 copies of it, you get a playset, or you can play it draft, sealed, whatever floats your boat. In Americana Moneys, that's 45 dollars for playsets, or 15 to try it out.

Then you have 4 different packs per set. Each pack has set contents and is singleton. There is no randomisation, but you need to buy each booster 3 times for playsets. So in Americana Money, it's 48 for the entire set at playset, but you don't need to buy each pack if you don't want every card. $4 a booster, like normal.

Cheap to start like a TCG, which Shoryuu mentioned, but ends up like a LCG.

Game is a Timmy as fuck Magic Clone, but it seems like it's a good direction.

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I kickstarted the original set, played it twice, haven't picked it up since.  The game just isn't interesting to me.  As for their distribution, it's really just LCG lite.  I can't really see limited formats being fun.  The reason draft/sealed works in games like MTG is because of the random packs.  If everyone gets the same base cards to play in a limited format why not just play constructed?  You are going to see a LOT of the same crap over and over in a sealed environment like this and in draft it's easy to make choices on which cards to grab because you are pretty much guaranteed on what is being passed to you.

It's definitely interesting, but I think it's just LCG being paraded as something it's not.

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Oh I don't disagree that it doesn't look fun, it looks like a Donk Fest version of MtG and I really like weaksauce MtG. I like my MtG like I like my cordial, very weak. Plus I don't care for the whole 0s and 1 play system.

But LCG Lite is exactly what I like about it and why I posted it. It's addressed some of the concerns of LCGs posted by users here. The packaging is nice, it's very obvious what you're buying into, presented with nice artwork and bright colours. The barrier to entry is very low, even by LCG standards, because it's TCG standard. The game itself is irrelevant to me, it's how it's sold.

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I was just talking to some friends about living card games and one HUGE concern brought up was if you lost a card of one got stolen. You'd have to buy the entire box again to replace one card unless there's singles (could be) which is gross in its own right even if it was your fault for losing it.

The model just brought up makes that hurt far less. I don't know how much buying all those products for playsets are in relation to most living card games, but it certainly addresses a lot of specific concerns for living card games.

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On 8/24/2017 at 7:58 PM, Mysterious Youth said:

I was just talking to some friends about living card games and one HUGE concern brought up was if you lost a card of one got stolen. You'd have to buy the entire box again to replace one card unless there's singles (could be) which is gross in its own right even if it was your fault for losing it.

The model just brought up makes that hurt far less. I don't know how much buying all those products for playsets are in relation to most living card games, but it certainly addresses a lot of specific concerns for living card games.

Well that can depend on the set. Taking Star Wars for example, since it's the one I collect. If I lost a card that comes from a Force Pack, then it's not a huge deal. Most Force Packs can be purchases on ebay with free shipping for $8-12. The equivalent of having to rebuy 2-3 mid level cards in a tcg. But if it came from the core set, which retails for ~$40, that would suck far worse. But if you lost or had a UR stolen, it would be in the same realm of cost more than likely. But losing something like a common/uc is generally free to replace as most players will toss you an extra.

Though I cant see anyone stealing singles from someone, at least from a Star Wars standpoint. They'd have to steal cards in groups of 6 due to how deckbuilding is. You have what are called objective sets. Your deck can have 10+ objectives, with a max of 2 of any objective. Each objective set has 5 other cards that are included with it (And are numbered with it) that are put in your main deck when you choose your objectives. So decks are built 6 cards at a time. In most cases they are built 12 cards at a time, as you usually run the max allowed.

I think any theft in an LCG would be bulk theft. Taking a whole deck, or as much of a collection you can get your hands on. There arent any money cards (That come in boxes) since every card should be the same rarity, and just as easily acquired as any other. Sure some might pull a bit more if someone were to sell singles for this reasoning, but wouldnt be as drastic as cost difference in good/bad rares in a tcg.

Theft in TCG's generally happens to gain value. Steal a UR and you just made $40-100 on ebay. Steal a card in an LCG, and good luck finding a buyer, since 99% of everyone else will have it. They would have to be stealing to build their personal collection, so grabbing a card here and there would be fairly pointless.

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LCGs have near no secondary market value... they will never take the place of any tcg model. Are they a better model for gamers most def. but they wont make any real changes to the card gaming genre.

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To be honest, the genre is really stagnant as is. The TCG side has devolved into Duel Masters Clone after Duel Masters Clone(Japanese Kids Magic), with Pokemon Clones drying up and no one being game enough to do something unique like DBZ, Raw or UFS.

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I mean, you just kind of named 3 card games that were pretty game to do something unique, one of which I KNOW is still going strong xD

We also need to acknowledge that, while I really hate Bushiroad's business model, their card games tend to be fairly original in structure and rulings. Honestly, if you just go hunting around, I'm sure you could find an absurd number of really original games. The issue is that they lack the player base of the big 3, and the only new games that really tend to get any attention are ones that replicate those 3. Also, if you're not in America or Japan, good luck collecting the majority of them.

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2 hours ago, Denithan said:

I mean, you just kind of named 3 card games that were pretty game to do something unique, one of which I KNOW is still going strong xD

We also need to acknowledge that, while I really hate Bushiroad's business model, their card games tend to be fairly original in structure and rulings. Honestly, if you just go hunting around, I'm sure you could find an absurd number of really original games. The issue is that they lack the player base of the big 3, and the only new games that really tend to get any attention are ones that replicate those 3. Also, if you're not in America or Japan, good luck collecting the majority of them.

Agreed! Bushi is quite original i have been a big fan sense day 1. Sadly though the direction they are taking in CFV is NOT something i feel is what the game needs but who am i but one guy. If they want to burry everything they built over the last 6 years in STRIDES then thats on them... who needs a deck lets start at G4 and win in 4 lol

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On 10/3/2017 at 7:25 AM, ImDoneItsOver said:

Agreed! Bushi is quite original i have been a big fan sense day 1. Sadly though the direction they are taking in CFV is NOT something i feel is what the game needs but who am i but one guy. If they want to burry everything they built over the last 6 years in STRIDES then thats on them... who needs a deck lets start at G4 and win in 4 lol

Where else can Bushiroad take Vanguard without breaking the game in much the same way Konami already did with Yu-Gi-Oh!? The only reason why there's been such a huge emphasis on Strides over the last 6 years is mainly due to marketing. They don't like the idea of printing cards other than Grade 4's that are Triple Rares and SP's yet they don't seem to have a problem doing that with their Promo cards.

Personally I'd like to see new Strides for Gold Paladin that don't require a single counter blast to be tier 1 like Scourge Point was, more counter charge skills for clans without making counter blasts irrelevant. Being able to enable clans like Granblue to guard or intercept from the drop zone where the units are removed from the game after use similar to removing cards from the game when using G-Assist.

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Strides being released over RR when they are desired by everyone that plays that clan was money grubbing, pure and simple. Doesn't take a genius to see 'High Scarcity+High Demand=PROFIT!!!'

Stride arguably removed everything that the Original Series did with 'My Avatar', because it's not your avatar anymore, it's something that is triggered by your toolbox and has gives a further name to your toolbox. There is nothing to grow attached too, despite their half dozen variations of the new G3 over G3 and G4. It stopped feeling like Vanguard with Stride.

It's really damning on their developers that they had to continuously power creep and add new mechanics despite the game being fine in Block 3/Break Ride Era.

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To be fair, I would actually argue that the biggest issue with Stride is that it came a season too soon.

Vanguard is actually a really interesting game, with some interesting mechanics and clan interactions. With the Break Ride era, it was honestly the first time I'd played a game where your main power came when you were just inches away from losing. And what I really liked was that with Break Ride, Limit Break was fully fleshed out compared to it's previous state in Season 2. The mechanic needed 2 series and a spin on it to really make it go home, and it was great.

Legion was/is like Limit Break was in Season 2. It seemed absurdly powerful, and a large number of clans lacked decent ones because there's only so much you can do in one season. They were limited in power to balance them against LB, and while most of the decks of the era used it, LB decks and even decks that didn't run mechanics worked fine and were competitively viable to the point of topping. Where we should've gone from there is Keywords + LB4/Legion/Nada. For those who aren't keeping up to date, Keywords is a mechanic introduced recently that either supplements the clan's original basis (ala. Wave 2nd meaning specifically on your second attack for AqF), or adds an extra layer to the clan like Ritual or Blaze. Now, some keywords are obviously nicer/better than others, and some don't fit thematically with the clan they're in (Brave in a superior calling clan that WAS based around hand-advantage, Ritual in a deck that was based around superior calling specific combos of Grade 2s and 1s to fill the board for retire effects like Shadow Paladin), but they ultimately served to make the game more dynamic and were a worthwhile addition to making the clans more distinct and more variants of each deck viable.

Stride came way too soon, and was handled poorly. It went on to be a toolbox, instead of a specific G3 to a stride. What's hilarious is that even the lore of Stride doesn't really function with the toolbox mechanic, since it's meant to imply some kind of link with the summoner and the unit being called from the past/alternate reality/future. A good example of how stride COULD have been handled is in Blaster Dark "Diablo". Give Blaster Dark specific strides that ONLY he can use (and maybe Vortimer too, ig), and are barely a good attacker to the others. This would make Stride a much more limited mechanic, and would make it so much more meaningful when ALL your accessible strides are based on your G3. This would also be a more natural progression of Seek the Mate/Legion Mate, where your G3 grabs an ally that they're closely linked to to fight alongside. Only in this instance, they're calling an idealized version of an ally to fight on their behalf.

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@Denithan 

I think you're mis-remembering the Legion era a bit. It was heavily dominated by the Royal and Shadow Legion versions of Phantom Blaster Dragon, including the deck that forced Bushiroad to enact a deck building rule not too dissimilar to Pan Z's you need a Mastery rule, mono-Clan decks, with Majesty Lord Blaster allowing 4 Blaster Dark being the exception. After that 0 Tier, you had Cat Butler decks, then a tier 2 of Bluish Flame Liberator decks, Metalborg decks and Big Bang decks. There was nothing from pre-Legion in the meta.

Legion itself was pushed too hard too early, not understood by the development team and consequently not well developed. I like it as a mechanic, but it was very obviously a stop gap till G and something to push their film. I agree it should have been around longer, but at the same time, with Thing Saver running around, the damage had already been done. Legion, given it's much higher base power and it potentially stalling the game by shoving Heal Triggers back into the deck, should have probably been closer to the Blue Storm and Ogle cards than where it was.

I like the keywords too, but retrospectively, I wonder why they took so long to happen. Wave in particular should have triggered it long before it happened. I would have keyworded it the moment I thought of the mechanic, but they are in general a worthwhile addition to the game. Except Oracle. probably not Oracle.

I do like your version of Stride over what we got. I also don't mind the G Guardians. I think they serve a similar purpose.

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@Artificial Human
I'll say 50-50 on me mis-remembering in this instance, since I do remember the HUGE flood of Thing Saver and Phantom Blaster we got a long time, as well as the MLB-hybrid that forced a rule change. I also remember hating how Bushiroad god damn abstained from ever using the banlist when the new rulings would break the game so badly.
That said, I'm referring to the interim period before Abyss and Thing were dropped (which was mid-season); the rogue LB4 deck that would still do well, like Glendios before Blaster Joker and Overlord the Re-Birth decks that were viable up until around the mid-point. Heck, even Nouvelle decks were persistent until the Legions started getting out of hand. But this is also kind of what I mean in terms of it being like LB4 was in Season 2. You had two settings: Kind of underwhelming, like early Brawlers, Granblues lot, and Aqua Force at the time (the revival legion sent the game to hell for awhile a bit later on), and absurdly overpowered ones like Thing Saver, Phantom Blaster "Abyss," the late Brawlers, Blaster Joker, etc. Heck, iirc, most clans didn't even get a legion for a long time, and were flat-out unplayable. It's kind of funny to me that you bring up Bluish Flame Liberators though, because iirc, they sat awkwardly between the two categories until Glory came out. I guess that's why Tier 2.

I do agree that legion was pushed too hard. I think we got a certain part of the way in, and Bushiroad felt that they weren't as popular as they'd like in the higher brackets despite the fact that they were slowly being adopted and warmed up to. But in  the matter of a couple of packs, we went from Great Silver Wolf, Garmore to Monarch Sanctuary Alfred in terms of power-scale.
I think the early legions were fine for the time, Sacred Wingal, Percival and the like all not doing much to alter the format, but definitely giving variety. The biggest issue with Legion was that we got a few big ones way too early on, with effects that would carry them well into the G-era (looking at Break Ride Abyss). If you could slow that progress down to take place over 2 seasons, and spread out the support a bit more across the less-loved decks, it really could've been a fantastic format.

Of course though, that's not the reality of the matter, and I admit I aggrandized it. Really, my ideal progression for the series would've been Block 3, Early Legions, Keywords across LB4/Legion/Non-Applicable where we got late Season 4 Legions/revival legions and more fleshed out support for the older mechanics, G3-linked Strides, Toolbox G-Guards with G3-linked G-Guards for specific units. As a side note, if we did have G3-Linked Strides, Bushiroad also would've been able to work it so each clan strides differently. Maybe keep it so GC discards G3s (ig), but make it so Shadow Paladin has to retire from their field to stride. Make  Spike Brothers send from hand to soul. Work it so striders were the only units that could stride, strided in very specific ways, and scale the strides down/up to simply make them alternatives as opposed to just better.
Eh, such is life.

Heck, you could've even turned the movies plot of the Deletors going to town into an entire season. It certainly would've been better than the rush job we did get. As for the Keywords, I imagine they took so long mostly because Bushiroad has a history of clamoring over itself in attempts to come up with new mechanics and advertise the new cards. The game very much took a turn to be sales-focused the second Season 4 started up, and we can immediately see fan-bias deciding what clans get support and what don't. So while Keywords very much should've happened sooner, the reality is that they just weren't the idea they came up while they were rushing to produce more cards/episodes/money.

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6 hours ago, Artificial Human said:

Strides being released over RR when they are desired by everyone that plays that clan was money grubbing, pure and simple. Doesn't take a genius to see 'High Scarcity+High Demand=PROFIT!!!'

Stride arguably removed everything that the Original Series did with 'My Avatar', because it's not your avatar anymore, it's something that is triggered by your toolbox and has gives a further name to your toolbox. There is nothing to grow attached too, despite their half dozen variations of the new G3 over G3 and G4. It stopped feeling like Vanguard with Stride.

It's really damning on their developers that they had to continuously power creep and add new mechanics despite the game being fine in Block 3/Break Ride Era.

this is how a feel as well but even so i think this topic is a bit off track now huh guys ;) perhaps a CFV topic can be created to continue?

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