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Dennis77

Counter:Play Cards

Question

This will be a very general question, but I need some clarification on these types of cards (Cold Bloodlust, Crusher Ball, etc).  

What skills/effects (if any) does this type of card stop from happening?  Does it stop any "when this card is played" text, auto effects (which I believe it does not), Permanents, etc?

Does activating this card when an opponent plays a card from hand (or from a skill) automatically place the card into rest mode or send it to the drop area?

Any other nuances revolving around this type that might not be addressed by this question would also be appreciated?

bt1107coldbloodlust__20115.1501268754.500.750.jpg

bt1110crusherball__77317.1501268755.jpg

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Cold Bloodlust stops ALL effects on the targeted battle card, effectively making it an effect less vanilla card. This does include "when played" abilities like Ginyu, Hit, etc.

Crusher just puts the card in rest mode. When played effects still go through, but the card cannot attack or use activated skills.

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That isn't how effects work in this game. Autos resolve after the counter step. So when you play a card with an auto effect a counter window opens up. Cold Bloodlust erases all effect text on the card that was just played, so when Autos resolve there is no longer text on the card. Conversely, if you played Crusher Ball instead on a card with an auto effect, the effect would still go through.

This is how cards that have effects when they attack are still resolved, even if the attack is negated. For example if you attack with Energy Power Gotenks and the attack is negated with something like Whis's Coercion you still discard a card from the opponent's hand. Likewise, a card with Dual Attack that has the first attack negated will still have the chance to attack again.

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This is actually a pretty simple thing, direct from the play manual 6-3-1-3-1, the order for playing a battle card is:

1 - Declare playing the card, switching the appropriate energy to rest mode.

2 - Timing window for Counter:Play effects.

3 - Actually playing the card.

 

So the card isn't actually played until after Bloodlust resolves, hence why the Auto doesn't work.

 

This differs from the 7 drop beerus attack ruling because the act of resting the actual card to attack begins that process.  For playing a card, the process begins by declaring and resting energy, not by playing the card.

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You are right about bloodlust. But the auto "when you attack" effect still go trough regardless if you negated the attack. For some dumb reason. I want to say it's because the attack deceleration already happened so, the auto met its conditions. (If you ever played Yugioh, you should understand this)

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So Dennis is both correct and incorrect, based on the rules document and clarifications from Bandai.  Battle counters and play counters have differing timings, so we're looking at 2 different situations.  I shall explain:

 

Play timings - Specifically Cold Bloodlust.  Relevant Manual entry 6-3-1-3-1-1 (Playing a card during the free timing of a player's main phase)

The turn timing is "Declare playing a card - Reveal card, rest appropriate amount of energy to pay for the card" -> Counter Window in which "Counter: Play" card may be played and resolve -> Actually playing the card.

Therefor, when playing a counter: Play card like Cold Bloodlust, it resolves BEFORE the card being played enters play, thus that card is blank when entering and no "Auto" effects would trigger.

 

Combat timings - Specifically "When attacking..." powers vs. attack negation - Relevant Manual Entry 7-1-2-1

The combat timing is "Declare attack, resting attacker and choosing attack target" skills that trigger "When an attack is declared..." trigger here, but do not yet resolve -> Counter window, in which "Counter: Attack" cards may be played and resolve -> Auto/Blocker checkpoint, effects that triggered during the attack declaration resolve and Blocker skills may be activated.

Per entry 7-1-2-1 about the Auto/Blocker checkpoint "Even if the attack has been negated with an [Counter: Attack] skill, the checkpoint still occurs.  Skills that enter pending when the attack was declared activate at this timing."

 

So, in a tl:dr fashion: Cold Bloodlust negates Auto "when entering" skills on cards; Attack negaters do NOT stop skills that trigger "when an attack is declared...".

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Thank you for the clarification.  For my own sanity, I'd like to provide an example and you let me know if I am correct or not.  I have a Son Goku on the table, and announce that I am going to evolve the Son Goku into God Rush Son Goku.  I pay my energy cost, and place the God Rush Son Goku on the field.  After paying my costs and placing him on the table, my opponent plays:

Option 1 - Cold Bloodlust: If he played this, ALL of the effects of God Rush Son Goku are stopped (including the Auto effect)?  I assume it would have no effect on the evolve portion of God Rush Son Goku since that is the act of physically playing the card.  He would remain in active mode, but essentially be blank though (again, including the Auto effect)?

Option 2 - Crusher Ball: If he played this, I would retain all of the effects from the God Rush Son Goku, but would simply place him in rest mode and he would be unable to attack for the turn and be vulnerable to attack during my opponents next main phase?

Sorry to get deep in the weeds, I just want to make sure I am completely clear on this interaction.  Thank you again

SD1-02_grande.png

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17 hours ago, Dennis77 said:

Thank you for the clarification.  For my own sanity, I'd like to provide an example and you let me know if I am correct or not.  I have a Son Goku on the table, and announce that I am going to evolve the Son Goku into God Rush Son Goku.  I pay my energy cost, and place the God Rush Son Goku on the field.  After paying my costs and placing him on the table, my opponent plays:

Option 1 - Cold Bloodlust: If he played this, ALL of the effects of God Rush Son Goku are stopped (including the Auto effect)?  I assume it would have no effect on the evolve portion of God Rush Son Goku since that is the act of physically playing the card.  He would remain in active mode, but essentially be blank though (again, including the Auto effect)?

Option 2 - Crusher Ball: If he played this, I would retain all of the effects from the God Rush Son Goku, but would simply place him in rest mode and he would be unable to attack for the turn and be vulnerable to attack during my opponents next main phase?

Sorry to get deep in the weeds, I just want to make sure I am completely clear on this interaction.  Thank you again

SD1-02_grande.png

For me, dont stop the  the auto, because is like beerus auto ability, you can negate the attack but not the auto ability

 

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38 minutes ago, Flop07 said:

For me, dont stop the  the auto, because is like beerus auto ability, you can negate the attack but not the auto ability

 

Cold Bloodlust does stop auto abilities, crusher ball does not.

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8 hours ago, sh0ryu_repp4 said:

Cold Bloodlust does stop auto abilities, crusher ball does not.

Where in the rule said that,

The card can negate the other skill in the card, but not the auto.

Is the same wiht berrus atack and any cards that can negate an atack, his auto ability go after you cancel his atack

 

 

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12 hours ago, Flop07 said:

Where in the rule said that,

The card can negate the other skill in the card, but not the auto.

Is the same wiht berrus atack and any cards that can negate an atack, his auto ability go after you cancel his atack

 

 

I may not know much about this card game, (I've been going over the FAQ and learning everything I can about it though) but I think that Counter:Attack and Counter:Play may function differently? I know that for whatever reason when you attack with an auto ability that triggers on attack even if you negate the attack it still goes off, but I'm guessing that when you play a card and your opp. plays something like Cold Bloodlust perhaps Auto abilities don't work the same way an auto ability would trigger when attacking vs. playing a card. That is just my 2 cents though.

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The timing for effects goes:

Auto -> Counter -> Blocker -> Awaken -> Combo

Counter windows open after autos activate and auto resolve after the counter window. Which is why Dual Attackers can attack again even after their attack is negated with cards like Whis' Coercion.

Cold Bloodlust negates all effects, it doesn't exclude any particular kind.

 

also yes attacking and playing a card are not the same thing.

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39 minutes ago, sh0ryu_repp4 said:

The timing for effects goes:

Auto -> Counter -> Blocker -> Awaken -> Combo

Counter windows open after autos activate and auto resolve after the counter window. Which is why Dual Attackers can attack again even after their attack is negated with cards like Whis' Coercion.

Cold Bloodlust negates all effects, it doesn't exclude any particular kind.

 

also yes attacking and playing a card are not the same thing.

Thanks for that. I understand how the timing goes. I just think it is interesting based on other card games I've played.

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2 hours ago, sh0ryu_repp4 said:

The timing for effects goes:

Auto -> Counter -> Blocker -> Awaken -> Combo

Counter windows open after autos activate and auto resolve after the counter window. Which is why Dual Attackers can attack again even after their attack is negated with cards like Whis' Coercion.

Cold Bloodlust negates all effects, it doesn't exclude any particular kind.

 

also yes attacking and playing a card are not the same thing.

The only I say is that The Cold Bloodlus negated all the skill in the card that havent triger.

The auto ability is aredy trigered went play then come the conter timing

His effect is aredy in the chaing

That the way I see his game go in the skill speed. 

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2 hours ago, sh0ryu_repp4 said:

The timing for effects goes:

Auto -> Counter -> Blocker -> Awaken -> Combo

Counter windows open after autos activate and auto resolve after the counter window. Which is why Dual Attackers can attack again even after their attack is negated with cards like Whis' Coercion.

Cold Bloodlust negates all effects, it doesn't exclude any particular kind.

 

also yes attacking and playing a card are not the same thing.

The only I say is that The Cold Bloodlus negated all the skill in the card that havent triger.

The auto ability is aredy trigered went play then come the conter timing

His effect is aredy in the chaing

That the way I see his game go in the skill speed. 

 

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Thank you for this discussion gentlemen.  For what it's worth, after examining the CRD as much as possible, I have to agree with sh0ryu_repp4 that Cold Bloodlust would stop essentially everything on the card, even Auto effects.  To dive a bit further, and I can move this into a separate section, I am now under the impression that Counter:Attack cards (certain ones) can also negate auto effect.  I will explain based on the text:

Straight from the CRD (with my interpretations between.  CRD text is in italics)

7-1. During the Main Phase, the turn player can switch an Active Mode Leader Card/Battle Card in their Leader Area or Battle Area to Rest Mode in order to attack the opponent’s Leader Card or Battle Cards in Rest Mode. If the player chooses to attack, follow the procedures 7-1-1. to 7-1-4.
- This step declares the Attack, no issues here

7-1-1. A counter timing occurs. The non-turn player can activate a [Counter: Attack] skill which condition has been fulfilled.
- After declaring the attack, an immediate window exists (and if you note on the step below, this window kicks in prior to Auto effects).  The specific text quoted in this line is not Counter:Play, but instead is Counter:Attack, so this is applicable to the Counter:Attack cards (though there is a separate section in the CRD addressing Counter:Play cards, which I will not address here).  Therefore, looking at Whis's Coercion, this would be the "counter timing" window where that card is played.

7-1-2. A checkpoint occurs. [Auto] skills that trigger upon attack and the non-turn player’s [Blocker] skills activate at this timing.
- Checkpoint occurs here, after the "counter timing" window.  CRD specifically states that Auto Skills of both players occur at this point, after the "counter timing" window.

7-1-2-1. Even if the attack has been negated with an [Counter: Attack] skill, the checkpoint still occurs. Skills that 8 entered pending when the attack was declared activate at this timing.
- This appears to simply state that this checkpoint still occurs, so if there were ever cards that triggered at this timing point that were unaffected by the counter cards (which none exist at this point as far as I can tell), then they would still kick in because the checkpoint still occurs.

Based on this interpretation (which I believe is a strict interpretation from the rule book personally), not only could Cold Bloodlust turn a card vanilla, but a card like Whis's Coercion could stop things like Broly's leader ability Auto Effect as a counter:attack card.

Am I wrong is basically what I'm wondering, and if so, could you please explain.  Thank you

137504_200w.jpg

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Ok, the explanation above makes perfect sense to me, once you've provided the examples for both play timings.  I am super grateful for all of your input, and am confident in using this ruling when moving forward in the game.  Thank you!!

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@sh0ryu_repp4, @Flop07, @RPENERGY - Regarding Bloodlust you guys are ALL looking at the wrong set of rules.  Attack timing has nothing to do with Play timing.  You can see my last post above, but here's a reminder, per 6-3-1-3-1-1 (NOT section 7, which is attacking)

Play timing goes: Announce card, rest energy to pay for card -> Counter: Play timing -> Actually Play the card, Auto effects for "when played" trigger

By the time Cold Bloodlust is resolved, the card is blank before it is officially "played" so the auto effects do NOT trigger.

 

@Dennis77 - Your above example (just below my last response) has the right end results, but has ONE mistake.  You state "I pay my energy cost, and place the God Rush Son Goku on the field.  After paying my costs and placing him on the table, my opponent plays: (Cold Bloodlust or Crusher Ball)"  THIS is where the play timing comes in (6-3-1-3-1-1).  You Pay your costs, but don't place him on the table until your opponent has a chance to play Bloodlust or Crusher.  Once they have that chance, THEN you play the card to the table (either blank with Bloodlust or rested with Crusher.)

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@Stryyder I understood the timing, I only questioned that playing and attacking were different, which is true. I also stated that I thought how the game works with negating attacks and auto abilities still triggering in those situations is odd, but that's just from my experience with other card games. Although I do appreciate the in depth explanations you gave with how everything works. ^_^

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Yeah, no worries, I was just trying to get everyone's attention, lol.  The timings are really weird in this game and it's going to take into set 2 and maybe longer until everyone has them all down.

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