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Stryyder

Rules primer - counter timings - Play vs Attack

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Hey all.  This seems to be a large point of contention, and so I wanted to expand upon it for a bit.  There has been a LOT of talk and confusion regarding the resolution timing of Counter cards, in relation to what phase they are used.  A lot of these are for the more high profile cards like Cold Bloodlust and Whis's Coercion.  People are using battle timing as reference for play timing and vice versa, but the fact is they are quite different.  In this post I'm going to go in depth on the timing for both playing cards and attacking during your main phase free timing.  You can find any referenced rulings in the official rules manual: here

There are currently 3 counter types in DBS: Play, Attack and Counter. (though there is one "Attack" counter that is specific to Battle Cards attacking, King Cold)

 

Counter: Play - Relevant Manual Section - 6-3-1-3-1 (Playing battle cards)

In playing a battle card, there are 3 steps (6-3-1-3-1-1 through 6-3-1-3-1-3).  In order these steps are:

1 - Declare the card you are playing and switch the appropriate # of energy to rest mode.

2 - Counter Timing occurs - this is where Counter: Play skills may be used and resolve.

3 - Actually playing the battle card.  This is where the card is placed onto the field and any "When played/evolved" auto skills would be triggered and resolved.

What does this mean?  2 current cards with a "Play" counter are Cold Bloodlust and Crusher Ball.  Per the timings above, these would resolve BEFORE the targeted card hits the field.  In the case of the former, it would hit the field blank (thereby negating ANY skills, including "when played" skills) and for the latter, the target enters the field in rest mode.

 

Counter: Attack - Relevant Manual Section - 7-1 (declaring an attack)

In attacking, either with your leader card or a battle card, there are several steps to follow.  In order these steps are:

1 - The turn player may choose their active mode leader or battle card in their leader or battle card area and turn it to rest mode to attack, declaring either their opponent's leader card or one of their opponent's Rest Mode battle cards as the target.

2 - "when this card attacks", "when this card is attacked" and "[Blocker]" trigger, but are not resolved yet.

3 - Counter Timing occurs - This is where Counter: Attack skills may be used and resolve.

4 - A checkpoint occurs.  This is where "Auto" abilities that trigger upon attacking occur as well as when the defending player may declare which, if any "Blocker"s they will use.  NOTE:  there is a special clarification on this step in Rule Manual section 7-1-2-1 that states that even if a "Counter: Attack" skill used in the previous step NEGATED the attack this checkpoint STILL occurs and these Auto skills will STILL resolve.

(after these steps come the Offense and Defense phases where combo and "Activate: Battle" skills may be used, but we're focusing on JUST the declaration phase at the moment)

What does this mean?  Just as stated above, even if a card would negate an attack, any "Auto" skills that trigger when attacking(ex. Beerus, General of Demolition BT1-041) STILL resolve.

BONUS - per 7-1-4-1 in the rules, even if an attack is negated, skills that trigger "at the end of battle" (except Revenge) still go off.

 

Counter: Counter - Relevant Manual Section - 4-7-3-2 (Counter Timings)

Whenever a Counter Timing occurs (see step 2 in both of the above examples), there are 5 steps (4-7-3-2 through 4-7-3-5)

1 - The player who DIDN'T play/use the triggering Card/Skill may use a relevant Counter card.

2 - The other player chooses to use a Counter: Counter card or does nothing.

3 - (situational) if the second player used a Counter: Counter, the initial player may use a Counter: Counter card or does nothing. (Repeat 2 and 3 until one player does not play a Counter: Counter and then proceed to step 4)

4 - Resolve all Counter skills in reverse order (First in last out)

5 - Carry out the original triggering action or skill if possible and then return to normal play.

What does this mean?  While sections like 6-3-1-3-1-2 and 7-1-1 simply state "The Non-turn player can activate [Counter: ______] skills..." section 4-7 expands the counter timing window to its FULL form (final form?) in which players may bounce "Counter: Counter" skills as necessary.  (This can deter rules lawyers who may try and claim that sections 6 and 7 ONLY allow the non-turn player to activate counters, when it isn't that simple.)

BONUS: Using Extra Cards that have Counter Skills may require a "Skill Cost".  Skill costs are written effects that precede a colon on the card.  An example would be Bad Ring Laser: Counter: Counter - Choose a yellow card in your hand and send it to the drop area: negate target counter skill.  Discarding a yellow card is a "skill cost", meaning the card CANNOT be played/activated without paying that cost.  Skill Costs on Extra cards are generally paid just before paying their energy costs.  This means that you CANNOT use the new Promo Frieza from the draft box to try and fish for a yellow card to discard from your life cards. 

So that's it for now!  You now have a hearty knowledge of counter timings in any (current) situation.  Who knows what set 2 and on will bring up, but this is a good basis point for now.  Any questions, comments or accusations of lack of reading comprehension may be left below for subsequent follow up.

~Stryyder

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I think you are incorrect on just one thing and I think this is going to open a whole can of worms.

 

6-3-1-3-1-1 states "switch the costs worth of energy to rest mode to play a card"

6-3-1-3-1-2 is counter timing

6-3-1-3-1-3 states "actually playing the battle card"

 

You state that for 6-3-1-3-1-1 that you have to declare what card you are playing when paying the cost.  However, the rule manual only says to pay the energy to play the card, but playing the card does not actually happen until after counter timing.

 

Therefore, it looks to me like this counter timing happens before the opponent knows what card you are going to play but after the cost.  This seriously affects cards like Crusher Ball and Cold Bloodlust.

 

Please confirm or debate.  Thanks!

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1 hour ago, The Bear said:

I think you are incorrect on just one thing and I think this is going to open a whole can of worms.

 

6-3-1-3-1-1 states "switch the costs worth of energy to rest mode to play a card"

6-3-1-3-1-2 is counter timing

6-3-1-3-1-3 states "actually playing the battle card"

 

You state that for 6-3-1-3-1-1 that you have to declare what card you are playing when paying the cost.  However, the rule manual only says to pay the energy to play the card, but playing the card does not actually happen until after counter timing.

 

Therefore, it looks to me like this counter timing happens before the opponent knows what card you are going to play but after the cost.  This seriously affects cards like Crusher Ball and Cold Bloodlust.

 

Please confirm or debate.  Thanks!

You are correct but also the second sentence of 6-3-1-3-1-1 says: "If you cannot switch the necessary amount of cards to Rest Mode, you cannot declare playing of the card." This would SEEM to imply that you do have to declare the playing of the card. Otherwise why would there be a check to make sure you have the correct energy in play?

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I was just playing devil's advocate but I think you are right Shoryu.  If you didnt have to declare which battle card you were playing you could simply play another card of the same cost after counters are carried out, which would be BS.  I will say that the wording in the manual should be updated to make it more clear tho.

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For example, this should really say "declare which battle card you are going to play and pay the energy cost" for the first point, IMO.

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Agree as well.  My reasoning would be that you MUST make your opponent aware of what card you are going to play, merely based on the fact that they would have to know how much energy is required to play it, to ensure you rest the appropriate amount (similar to the reasoning behind the "cherry picking" rule).

Good point to bring up though.

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Oh wow, I missed that.  I thought they finally added the "trigger" step before counter and then had the resolution step afterward.  I am guessing this is a mistake, someone forgot to add that back in.  Working on getting clarification now.

Ok, yeah, no change.  Autos resolve during the checkpoint at 7-1-3.  This is in reference to the description of checkpoints from 4-5-1.  I'll have to update my post above to correct for the current rule manual and fix one error (Revenge doesn't trigger if the attack is negated.)

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9 minutes ago, The Bear said:

Does that mean you got official clarification from Bandai on this?  What was changed?

That is what I am wondering too, what has actually changed?

Also on the DBS site it says they are on holiday until January 4th. So I don't think any emails will be answered until then at the earliest (possibly the 5th our time)

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Sorry, I meant my original post above has been updated.

Nothing has really changed.  The rewording was to better clarify when "battle" started, as some effects were confusing people.  They moved up the "attacker is attacker and defender is guard" timing from just before offense step to right after attack is declared.  Mostly this was to clear up the fact that "end of battle" effects happen even if the attack is negated or one of the involved cards leaves play.  (except for Revenge, but that's a whole new can of worms)

The ruling used to show that Autos still resolve AFTER counter is 4-5-1, which describes "Checkpoints" as places where Autos activate, so autos resolve at 7/1/3.

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So, they basically made it more confusing while trying to make it less confusing.  What do you mean about Revenge not triggering after a negate?  I thought it still activated even if the attack is negated; is that incorrect?

 

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yeah, it honestly doesn't make sense from the current rules.  If you follow the fold out rules from the decks or the Rule Manual from the website, you would think that, as with any "End of battle" abilities it would trigger even after a negate or an abandoned combat (if one of the combatants leaves play).  But if you go to the Game Q&A under Revenge, you will see it doesn't.

The reasoning is the purpose of Revenge, it is supposed to act like Deathtouch from MTG, meaning you MUST resolve damage step for it to resolve.  However they need to tweak the wording on the ability so it isn't contradictory.

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