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Artificial Human

FoWCo TCGs.

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So with Force of Will being largely fucked over by incompetent development staff and having to fire their English Manager/Translator recently, FoWCo are releasing two new games. Both reuse quite a bit of terminology from Force of Will. Family of games I guess? Company flair?

Casters Chronicles is a loli game for weaboos, I am not kidding, which rips off Duel Masters, because what doesn't these days >_>. It's quirk is it has a Vanguard, for some reason. You level it up to boot. Gives 'Ride the Vanguard' a whole new meaning...

Architect is YGO, Magic, UFS and Hearthstone's Scifi love child. Using actual people. The game has Elvis. Basically YGO with Magic's health system and the threshold system of Hearthstone, except you play cards like Mana and those cards operate like UFS's Foundations x YGO's Trap Cards. All you really need to know is it's YGO with Mana and a scifi bent.

Architect is most certainly the more interesting of the two games and the idea of a potentially balanced YGO has me interested. Casters and Architect are not handled by FoW's dumbass developers, so there is hope there, but FoWco are money grubbers at heart, so the game might be pricey or end up that way after sales pick up.

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This is one way to look at these. Heres another lol. Casters are NOT vanguards but instead the main resource of the game. From what i gather you have a team of casters.. you can only have one caster of one name in play, you however can level it up to have said caster gen more "energy" to summon your "Servants" that attack and defend. Architect is an interesting one and honestly dont know what to expect from it. As for FOW itself once they came officially to the USA they let the p[layers change the game so much that id have to say the PLAYER base killed the game. The first move was to remove life break? Taking away the comeback mechanic to make it more of a winner is winning game really broke what the game was at its core. Too bad really but you have to cater to your players these days otherwise the game wont last long... even in hindsight lol

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14 hours ago, Artificial Human said:

Casters Chronicles is a loli game for weaboos, I am not kidding

I do hope that's not a direction they go too far into. I didn't mind FoW at all. A bit watered down for my taste but it wasn't the worst game and I do like Anime art and the fact they use fairy tale characters. My problem with the art was the focus on some of them in the loli sense. Unfortunately, this drew out a certain demographic in our area and shops had to start tossing people out due to "un-welcomed" behavior in both how they openly fawned over certain "young" characters and how they addressed younger players. It was like they used the game as permission. It creeped a lot of people out, especially parents trying to bring their kids into the nerd scene.

And before anyone asks... unfortunately, there is a concentration of offenders in my area. There are a lot of factory jobs for them to have where they don't have to deal with people, so they can get those jobs and make money. Not saying that factory workers are bad, but having a lot of available places willing to hire them is why they flock to where I'm at. 

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9 hours ago, Majin Goo said:

I do hope that's not a direction they go too far into. I didn't mind FoW at all. A bit watered down for my taste but it wasn't the worst game and I do like Anime art and the fact they use fairy tale characters. My problem with the art was the focus on some of them in the loli sense. Unfortunately, this drew out a certain demographic in our area and shops had to start tossing people out due to "un-welcomed" behavior in both how they openly fawned over certain "young" characters and how they addressed younger players. It was like they used the game as permission. It creeped a lot of people out, especially parents trying to bring their kids into the nerd scene.

And before anyone asks... unfortunately, there is a concentration of offenders in my area. There are a lot of factory jobs for them to have where they don't have to deal with people, so they can get those jobs and make money. Not saying that factory workers are bad, but having a lot of available places willing to hire them is why they flock to where I'm at. 

yikes man sorry to hear that. Its sad but true, I enjoy the anime art astyle as well but id have to say quite a few of the FOW images were pushing if not over the "boundaries" the Bluse Cat card comes to mind (though i fget it name atm)

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6 hours ago, ImDoneItsOver said:

yikes man sorry to hear that. Its sad but true, I enjoy the anime art astyle as well but id have to say quite a few of the FOW images were pushing if not over the "boundaries" the Bluse Cat card comes to mind (though i fget it name atm)

It sells unfortunately. You might be thinking of the Cheshire Cat. It had a misprint without leggings as well and got more popular when people realized it might actually be a boy. It actually was one of the best cards but I can't help think it's price point had a lot to do with the theme of the art. 

The problem has normalized so it's not going away. I was looking through the Funimation app for something to watch, found out "Fan-service" is an official genre now. Thankfully, there are plenty of developers out there willing to make product with the Anime theme without pushing the boundaries on child like characters. 

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>_>

My friend doesn't know about this forum, so I guess it's safe to post here. He fits in this topic. He doesn't act inappropriately with people or the like, but he acts really creepy over young female characters. I very much doubt he'd do anything, but it put a huge rift in our tiny play group, as my best mate couldn't help but find it so creepy, he openly mocked him for it. Coupled with me having a melt down due to FoW's garbage tier developers and personal reasons as well as my friend being highly defensive of the mothership until he personally was burned, it basically split the group. Did I mention he exclusively plays females and hype decks? Even today he's the butt of a lot of my best mate's jokes. I don't think the person in question is dangerous or bad, he does seem to understand it's inappropriate, he just always does it. He's got Casters product on preorder, because of course he does.

However, I don't blame FoW alone. This is a JTCG problem. Vanguard has it bad with Bermuda Triangle. Real bad. Always attracted people that fit this niche. Then we have YGO and it's fandom fawning over DMG.

If I were to make a TCG, I'd be scared of female characters, only because I don't want this problem and them screeching for their fan service. I'm not against sexuality or anything of the like, just I wouldn't want to have to both deal with that type of person and have them give a bad impression of the type of people who play my game.

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1 hour ago, Artificial Human said:

>_>

My friend doesn't know about this forum, so I guess it's safe to post here. He fits in this topic. He doesn't act inappropriately with people or the like, but he acts really creepy over young female characters. I very much doubt he'd do anything, but it put a huge rift in our tiny play group, as my best mate couldn't help but find it so creepy, he openly mocked him for it. Coupled with me having a melt down due to FoW's garbage tier developers and personal reasons as well as my friend being highly defensive of the mothership until he personally was burned, it basically split the group. Did I mention he exclusively plays females and hype decks? Even today he's the butt of a lot of my best mate's jokes. I don't think the person in question is dangerous or bad, he does seem to understand it's inappropriate, he just always does it. He's got Casters product on preorder, because of course he does.

However, I don't blame FoW alone. This is a JTCG problem. Vanguard has it bad with Bermuda Triangle. Real bad. Always attracted people that fit this niche. Then we have YGO and it's fandom fawning over DMG.

If I were to make a TCG, I'd be scared of female characters, only because I don't want this problem and them screeching for their fan service. I'm not against sexuality or anything of the like, just I wouldn't want to have to both deal with that type of person and have them give a bad impression of the type of people who play my game.

It's to the point that it's expected of JTCG's. I have that "call out problem". I have no problem calling someone out openly for their creep. I tried a while back to find a MLP play group, hoping to find parents with their young kids that play together. What I found was grown bronies that were... beyond creepy. After getting a talking too about respecting other's views from a store owner for threatening to kill one because he asked about what age my daughter would start puberty I gave up. There is however, a MLP Table Top RPG I plan on buying and hopefully, I can do something with the local shop to bring in like minded parents and DM for the kids in a safe environment.

Thankfully, that store owner ran herself into debt and had to sell the store. I still don't shop their now because their selection is MtG, MtG, MtG, and DnD with MtG. I found a store that does everything and the store owner has a parent mentality and is right there with me in dealing with creeps and elitist assholes that get in your face. 

There's also a kick ass Veteran ran Archery Club next door with a door in the store that goes there. We've always got muscle. 

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2 hours ago, Artificial Human said:

However, I don't blame FoW alone. This is a JTCG problem. Vanguard has it bad with Bermuda Triangle. Real bad. Always attracted people that fit this niche. Then we have YGO and it's fandom fawning over DMG.

This is actually a really serious problem I had for awhile with running an online Vanguard team (and still do, to a much more limited extent). We had several players who started off liking Bermuda's mechanics (well, "started off"), and that was fine. Then it got to the point of them going to fucking tournaments with mats depicting lolis in lingerie, and shit got REALLY out of hand. I pretty much booted all but one of them from my team tbh, and the last one is someone who several members of the team are attached to, so unless he slips up, I'm limited in my actions. That said, I do have a strong history of booting him from the team chat whenever he posts something creepy, or nasty.

That said, I agree with you in not having an issue with sexuality. For me, it's a matter of atmosphere and appropriateness. It's hilarious to me that people like my team mate can show up to these events with basically porn, screech at everything that is remotely female, and then rave on about how women don't like card games. I wonder what gave you that impression, mate? |:
 

58 minutes ago, Majin Goo said:

I found a store that does everything and the store owner has a parent mentality and is right there with me in dealing with creeps and elitist assholes that get in your face.

That actually sounds really wonderful. If there's something I've always felt card games needed, it was a more balanced environment that was actually welcoming.
Keep everyone lit up on how it goes.

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2 hours ago, Denithan said:

That actually sounds really wonderful. If there's something I've always felt card games needed, it was a more balanced environment that was actually welcoming.
Keep everyone lit up on how it goes.

It's a rare thing to find a shop owner that stands against the status quo. The last time I saw it was when the majority of stores in my area banned the Yugioh events due to high levels of theft and toxicity. I know, Yugioh players get tired of hearing it, but in some places they really are out of control. They're just now rebuilding but clear guidelines have been laid for them.

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6 hours ago, Majin Goo said:

It's to the point that it's expected of JTCG's. I have that "call out problem". I have no problem calling someone out openly for their creep. I tried a while back to find a MLP play group, hoping to find parents with their young kids that play together. What I found was grown bronies that were... beyond creepy. After getting a talking too about respecting other's views from a store owner for threatening to kill one because he asked about what age my daughter would start puberty I gave up. There is however, a MLP Table Top RPG I plan on buying and hopefully, I can do something with the local shop to bring in like minded parents and DM for the kids in a safe environment.

Dude. Words escape me. How the fuck does praying a child, in front of their father, constitute as a 'view'? It's disgusting behavior and the fact she basically defended this degenerate, in my eyes, makes her just as bad, if not worse. Fuck these people.

 

5 hours ago, Denithan said:

That said, I agree with you in not having an issue with sexuality. For me, it's a matter of atmosphere and appropriateness. It's hilarious to me that people like my team mate can show up to these events with basically porn, screech at everything that is remotely female, and then rave on about how women don't like card games. I wonder what gave you that impression, mate? |:

I know, right?

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11 hours ago, Artificial Human said:

Dude. Words escape me. How the fuck does praying a child, in front of their father, constitute as a 'view'? It's disgusting behavior and the fact she basically defended this degenerate, in my eyes, makes her just as bad, if not worse. Fuck these people.

I live in an area where the concept of, "feelings are more important than reality and morals and ethics are subjective and everyone's own view should be respected and societal ethics is oppressive" has taken hold. Obviously, ethics can't be entirely subjective or what's the point, but a lot of the people who played the hobby scene in my area were... immature. A lot of adults who are still functionally teenagers and tween. Thankfully, it's slowly going in the other direction as the focus is shifting to board games, LCG’s, Table Top RPG’s, and miniatures. These games require a larger social investment which seems to curve the attitude.

I also think the creeps started affecting the store's bottom lines. I’ve branded our gaming area and I put a lot of effort in community building and involvement in our area. When you have to be a part of the community to participate, it's harder to be a jackass and survive. 

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Damn that is really unfortunate to hear. Being a convention goer/cosplayer I know EXACTLY what you guys are talking about. There have been times where myself or my gf and I have stayed with a friend of ours in our group longer than usual because of creeps and one time even walked a friend to her car because some creep had been basically stalking her the whole event. It is a big problem in the nerd (especially anime) scene and I can only hope it gets better.

On a happier note, that Architect game sounds interesting! If I can have Abraham Lincoln fighting Moses or some shit that sounds AWESOME lol I am TOTALLY down for "Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny: The Game" xD

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If Force of Will TCG had any chance of making a comeback it would've been through cashing in on the success of MTG's EDH/Commander format. It'd be hard to pull off due to the game's card pool not having enough cards to support a 79 card singleton format If you exclude both the J/ruler and Magic Stone Deck in regards to deck construction with Attribute identity. Dealing 21k or more to your opponents after you J-Activated could've been feasible with the J-Activation costs being akin to the Commander tax.

While it's a shame the idea never took off, it probably would've hurt MTG in the long run which managed to capitalize on the success of EDH/Commander in order to stay afloat with Standard, Modern, and Legacy becoming too expensive to keep up with. Then again I don't think Sheldon Menery would've been pleased with another company plagiarizing a format that he created on his own before Wizards of the Coast caught wind of it's success. Not to mention the EDH Rules Committee would've had a better handling than Force of Will Company.

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On ‎10‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 3:32 PM, Artificial Human said:

However, I don't blame FoW alone. This is a JTCG problem. Vanguard has it bad with Bermuda Triangle. Real bad. Always attracted people that fit this niche. Then we have YGO and it's fandom fawning over DMG.

The strangest for me is when it started to slip into Pokémon starting in the B&W era.  It could have been because they went from 10-12 year old trainers to teenage trainers.  The average age of the trainers have been up since then and some of the full art supporter card females were pretty suggestive, particularly Skyla(particularly the reprint), Bridget, there were even some of the older female players going gaga over the full art Prof Sycamore.

That's not even counting some of the official sleeves that took some of this even FURTHER. (Skyla sleeves, wtf)

 

As for the games themselves, I don't see them lasting more than a year or two at the most.  We've got 3 newer games that tried to make it in the mainstream this year and only one is really catching on in any sense.  MetaX is slowly fading away and I don't think Dragoborne ever had a chance outside the die-hard bushi crowd.  Trying to release 2 at once just smacks of "Let's throw everything against the wall and see if anything sticks"

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So Rudy of Alpha Investments confirmed that the company behind Force of Will TCG is being forced to end all print runs in an attempt to save their own game though he didn't say anything about Caster Chronicles which is dead on arrival IMO. WotC just recently ended their entire print run for Hour of Devastation in MTG and TPCi seems to be having similar problems with Ultra Prism in Pokémon TCG. DBS seems to be what's really saving the Trading Card Game/Collectible Card Game industry right now.

He said that it's a part of an ongoing trend where distributors have gotten burned for so many years due to lack of sealed product being sold to the point that there's no longer any consumer confidence. The rapid decline of the Trading Card Game/Collectible Card Game business model is due to a combination of many variables: 1: An ongoing shift towards a digital space like Hearthstone. 2: There's so much product being distributed that the pie is being cut thinner and thinner.

You also factor in other variables between poor management, too many sets being released, allocations, and such that it ends up creating a snowball effect. Sadly it's the direction that we're heading toward. Big companies are usually a lagging indicator and If the economy tanks then it takes a long time for a company to react and adjust, lay off employees, cut payroll, adjust how much production, etc. There is a lagging time and he thinks that we're finally starting to see those results.

He's not sure If it's soon enough to really make changes but as far as Force of Will TCG goes he's happy that they're making changes. They need to make some good moves because they're not doing good, the game is on life support. When distributors order such a small amount, that's just it they're done. It's not because of how much money they've lost in the previous four to five or six sets, it's bad. You go online and nobody's even carrying the product anymore, it's bad which is a terrible thing.

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FoWCo's upper management are retarded. Their CEO did posts on the website about the state of the game and the future, most of the articles were about his Globalism and using the game to jet set across the world, the quality of the game was a footnote. Worse yet? He explicably said he'd only listen to who he wanted to listen too regarding the quality of the game and what needs being done, instead of listening to everyone and reflecting on what the most common complaints are.

It's going to die because it's been a shit show since Valhalla 1 and only got progressively worse since Alice 1. None of these people have any place running a game.

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I've also been seeing similar behavior from WotC when it comes to MTG where their upper management only does what's in their own best interest instead of the interest of the consumer. I don't think companies have the right to run their own games into the ground when it should ultimately be up to the consumer to decide by voting with their wallets. If they spent less time thought policing social media sites like reddit, Twitter, and Facebook and actually gave a damn about their job then we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

As for Force of Will TCG, the reason print runs ended for that game was due to a misprint issue so they were forced to cut Time Spinning Witch short. They actually have a second wave coming in June that has the issue fixed. Based on what I've been hearing the game's doing fine despite the TCG/CCG Market being in terrible shape right now. The reason why Hour of Devastation went out of print in MTG was because it was a terrible set and nobody wanted it aside from the card stock still being made out of toilet paper.

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2 hours ago, Card Slinger J said:

 

As for Force of Will TCG, the reason print runs ended for that game was due to a misprint issue so they were forced to cut Time Spinning Witch short. They actually have a second wave coming in June that has the issue fixed. Based on what I've been hearing the game's doing fine despite the TCG/CCG Market being in terrible shape right now. The reason why Hour of Devastation went out of print in MTG was because it was a terrible set and nobody wanted it aside from the card stock still being made out of toilet paper.

This is correct. They have to correct that really severe screw up with the rulers having mismatched sides. I seem to recall there being more issues with the print run, but I don't think it was anything major enough to remember. Rudy, God bless him, doesn't know this.

However, you are incorrect it's doing well. It's community participation peaked mid Lapis and is like when it started now. The game has always had anecdotal reports of 20 man ARGs, tournaments not reported on numbers outside of anecdotes. While I hear Time Spinning Witch is a good set, surprisingly, the FoW community have not been happy with the state of the game for quite some time.

For what it's worth, nearly every Vanguard old timer I knew from the original through early G is long gone. It's communities are slow compared to the old days and Bushiroad apparently only prints Preorders+Buffer and tiny second printing now and that's been the case for a while.

I really need to research Pokemon now, because on the outside, I like a lot of what they do, but I haven't played since early BW era, and I've heard conflicting reports as to it's health. But it's also at the end of a Generation, pokemon usually lulls around that time.

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On 3/19/2018 at 0:57 AM, Artificial Human said:

He explicably said he'd only listen to who he wanted to listen too regarding the quality of the game and what needs being done, instead of listening to everyone and reflecting on what the most common complaints are.

I'd hate to play devil's advocate here, but that might actually be a good thing so feel free to prove me wrong. The people who complain about the game are often not interested in the well-being of the game at all but rather an agenda on how they want the game to be. A producer has to find a middle ground or a compromise that gives most people what they want. But since most people have only their own interests in mind, they don't care about that, and thus are never truly satisfied. Why listen to them at all?

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1 hour ago, Card Slinger J said:

I'd hate to play devil's advocate here, but that might actually be a good thing so feel free to prove me wrong. The people who complain about the game are often not interested in the well-being of the game at all but rather an agenda on how they want the game to be.

That's an assumption and doesn't take into account context. You're not taking into account a narrow meta, power creep, poor design decisions. All reasons people complain. Someone else on TopTier brought up a similar argument before when Pan Z was dying 'You complain all the time, you clearly hate the game, why are you here?'. Well, the answer is simple, and it's true for many of the people on this board who aired their grievances at the time:

We complain because we care.

We complain because despite liking the core mechanics, a narrow meta, poor design decisions or power creep has reduced our enjoyment of or straight up removed any enjoyment we can have from the game.

Yes, it is an agenda on how we want the game to be, but it's wanting a diverse meta with either no or minimal unfair cards or mechanics. That's really it. That's the agenda. Take the Mecha Frieza thing in DBS right now, I'm sure @sh0ryu_repp4 is very adamant on his opinions on Mecha Frieza because he enjoys the game and that card removes or reduces his enjoyment due to it's unfair combos.

If someone wasn't interested in the well being of the game, they would just leave, because they wouldn't care. Trolling and getting people really triggered, which admittedly is easy with TCG players, is the only reason they'd stay.

 

1 hour ago, Card Slinger J said:

A producer has to find a middle ground or a compromise that gives most people what they want.

Yes, the lead designer/publisher do have to find a middle ground that pleases most people. It's kinda their job to know how loud the concern truly is and given that most TCG players, especially mods, are easily triggered, especially regarding game health and enjoyment of the game, how much concern is being suppressed.

I get biases and having to ignore some people because their biases interferes with game diversity. Someone who likes Control and wants a control meta isn't going to like Combo or Aggro being remotely viable, fine, ignore. But when your game is a shit show like Force of Will has been... forever, only getting worse as time goes on, you need to listen. When sales plummet? That's when you listen.

Most of Force of Will's complaints come down to really one thing right now:

The card balance and colour pie is absolutely atrocious. It needs fixing.

Everything else? Superfluous. When every single complaint echos this in some form and the game is hurting as bad as it is due to people giving up on it, they should be listening. This is what I mean about making your own judgement. There are a lot of complaints about this game, ranging from art, to story, rarity, to how support is distributed. But this key one about balance and the colour pie? It's the loudest. The arguments for it are really solid because of the game's history. Everything else can be either ignored or is already tackled.

But hey, choose not to listen. Go listen cultivated communities where complaints are shunned by the 'community leaders' because the game will die immediately that second if they're not suppressed. Only means the game dies that much faster.

2 hours ago, Card Slinger J said:

But since most people have only their own interests in mind, they don't care about that, and thus are never truly satisfied. Why listen to them at all?

More assumptions on people's motives.

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1 hour ago, Artificial Human said:

That's an assumption and doesn't take into account context. You're not taking into account a narrow meta, power creep, poor design decisions. All reasons people complain. Someone else on TopTier brought up a similar argument before when Pan Z was dying 'You complain all the time, you clearly hate the game, why are you here?'. Well, the answer is simple, and it's true for many of the people on this board who aired their grievances at the time:

We complain because we care.

We complain because despite liking the core mechanics, a narrow meta, poor design decisions or power creep has reduced our enjoyment of or straight up removed any enjoyment we can have from the game.

Yes, it is an agenda on how we want the game to be, but it's wanting a diverse meta with either no or minimal unfair cards or mechanics. That's really it. That's the agenda. Take the Mecha Frieza thing in DBS right now, I'm sure @sh0ryu_repp4 is very adamant on his opinions on Mecha Frieza because he enjoys the game and that card removes or reduces his enjoyment due to it's unfair combos.

If someone wasn't interested in the well being of the game, they would just leave, because they wouldn't care. Trolling and getting people really triggered, which admittedly is easy with TCG players, is the only reason they'd stay.

 

Yes, the lead designer/publisher do have to find a middle ground that pleases most people. It's kinda their job to know how loud the concern truly is and given that most TCG players, especially mods, are easily triggered, especially regarding game health and enjoyment of the game, how much concern is being suppressed.

I get biases and having to ignore some people because their biases interferes with game diversity. Someone who likes Control and wants a control meta isn't going to like Combo or Aggro being remotely viable, fine, ignore. But when your game is a shit show like Force of Will has been... forever, only getting worse as time goes on, you need to listen. When sales plummet? That's when you listen.

Most of Force of Will's complaints come down to really one thing right now:

The card balance and colour pie is absolutely atrocious. It needs fixing.

Everything else? Superfluous. When every single complaint echos this in some form and the game is hurting as bad as it is due to people giving up on it, they should be listening. This is what I mean about making your own judgement. There are a lot of complaints about this game, ranging from art, to story, rarity, to how support is distributed. But this key one about balance and the colour pie? It's the loudest. The arguments for it are really solid because of the game's history. Everything else can be either ignored or is already tackled.

But hey, choose not to listen. Go listen cultivated communities where complaints are shunned by the 'community leaders' because the game will die immediately that second if they're not suppressed. Only means the game dies that much faster.

More assumptions on people's motives.

I was going to say something along the lines of it not being an personal agenda when the majority of players are saying the same thing. But you put it out there nicely. Some players will have dumb ideas, but when it is nearly every player presenting the same problems, it is very unlikely the players are wrong. 9/10, when you have a a majority like that the developers are actually screwing up. What kills games is the people who wear blinders and refuse to acknowledge there is a serious problem and continue to buy in because they're afraid of change, being wrong, or they think their game will die otherwise, or a combination of any of those and more. 

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