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Thearbiter20x6

Saiyan Oppressive Nerf BAYBEEE

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28 minutes ago, sh0ryu_repp4 said:

Im glad I didnt waste time buying actual cards for OP Trunks, I knew this was gonna happen.

Retro was a shit storm after this announcement though.

LOL Why?!  This was a lame deck type!  Now Oppressive will be used the way it was MEANT to be used.  Anybody complaining just wanted a slice of the OP pie. 

Know what's funny?  The deck is SUPER cheap to make.  I had maybe 5-6 rares and 2 heroic dashing punch.  The rest is Fan Z or standard commons and uncommons.  Another reason it would have been a problem imo...everybody could run it with ease (and the HDP are not absolutely needed, though they are incredibly powerful with the mastery). 

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1 hour ago, Thearbiter20x6 said:

LOL Why?!  This was a lame deck type!  Now Oppressive will be used the way it was MEANT to be used.  Anybody complaining just wanted a slice of the OP pie. 

Know what's funny?  The deck is SUPER cheap to make.  I had maybe 5-6 rares and 2 heroic dashing punch.  The rest is Fan Z or standard commons and uncommons.  Another reason it would have been a problem imo...everybody could run it with ease (and the HDP are not absolutely needed, though they are incredibly powerful with the mastery). 

A lot of people were (to me anyway) surprisingly going back and forth on the nerf. I mean as far as I am concerned the nerf was absolutely needed. The detractors seemed to think the nerf to the mastery made it unplayable, which I don't agree with. it is still very playable with a bunch of the Saiyans and is an even better home for Sword Trunks imo.

One thing I don't necessarily agree with are the Videl buffs. Like damn, that girl didn't need any more help lol

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The mastery is still SUPER playable.  Now I can make an oppressive deck the way I wanted to make it.  I don't want simply to dump every card in existence that forces a skip.  I would rather make a deck with any card I want and try to capitalize on the mastery skip power (for instance, I would rather not use gut kicks JUST because it forces a skip). 

I want to go the obvious route and use Kid Trunks, toss in some Saiyan Prepped Ball, cool stuff like that! I HATE cookie-cutter builds.

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I am only saddened by the nerf because it is now the second deck I have built with this mastery and had it completely destroyed by the mastery changing. 

1st was a Cell Jr deck

2nd was my Kid trunks MPPV deck.

I suppose I'm in the camp that now looks at the mastery and doesn't really see it's strength anymore. Nothing comes to mind when I look at it outside of possibly a Awakening Vegeta deck, but I feel there are still better homes for him outside of this mastery. 

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To be honest, Oppressive now functions a bit more with the aim of single-sided beatdown as opposed to single-sided MPPV. You can still swing it with big monsters like Broly, or even Turles/Nappa, and get huge stage damage/deck damage before the opponent has a chance to respond to you. Which still gives you an insane edge when the opponent is relying on AT stages as well (less likely), or if they're pure energy beats and don't have innate stage gain (which is surprisingly common).

In effect, it's changed from an accelerated MPPV deck to a potentially more brutal version of Saiyan Empowered. Especially since you gain 2 stages each time the opponent skips, the lesser picked of the two options.

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Yeah, but Broly is good in anything. Like many, I'm bored with it and don't want to rely on a single MP to carry a mastery.

 

Turles/Nappa will always have the potential to 1-shot someone. They are also super fragile. If you get rid of Clench their damage output can be pretty laughable. I might try a clench deck but the last time I did I gave up when half my play group was playing Awakening Trunks and then a few Saiyan Broly players running around (Love having clench spun away by back breaker :( )

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56 minutes ago, Denithan said:

To be honest, Oppressive now functions a bit more with the aim of single-sided beatdown as opposed to single-sided MPPV. You can still swing it with big monsters like Broly, or even Turles/Nappa, and get huge stage damage/deck damage before the opponent has a chance to respond to you. Which still gives you an insane edge when the opponent is relying on AT stages as well (less likely), or if they're pure energy beats and don't have innate stage gain (which is surprisingly common).

In effect, it's changed from an accelerated MPPV deck to a potentially more brutal version of Saiyan Empowered. Especially since you gain 2 stages each time the opponent skips, the lesser picked of the two options.

This is a valid concern, but I am not worried about it.

While playtesting (extensively) against O. Trunks using my decks, here's how it went most of the time:

1. Trunks does things while I sit there bored

2. He uses up his whole hand

    a. If combat was not forced to end, go to next step

3. EPIC COUNTERATTACK

4. Bye bye Trunks

 You get to unload all of your stuff in turn.  Like you said, this could be trouble if you are energy and a pure beats deck would obviously hit harder than 0. Trunks, but it also would not hop levels nearly as quickly and in the case of Broly, misses out on Heroic Dashing Punch.  I don't think pure-skip beats will hit hard enough to outpace a potential counter attack since a lot of the cards they would use lack endurance.  I mean, it really depends on the deck it is fighting.  Should be okay, but we'll find out right? : )

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56 minutes ago, Amanax said:

Yeah, but Broly is good in anything. Like many, I'm bored with it and don't want to rely on a single MP to carry a mastery.

I love your comment about it being boring xD Couldn't agree more. But Broly was more an example of why Oppressive still has the potential to be hugely dominating. I don't think it's actually as bad as Saiyan Empowered was, but I can definitely still see the Saiyan Body Blow into Sword Skill into forced skips being very potent with the other Saiyan MPs (but we still run into the issue of, these personalities are potent in just about anything. Oppressive doesn't really contribute anything other than suggest a playstyle to make the opponent skip).

On a personal level, I'm really curious about how this Mastery would go with a Cell Allies build. Saiyan Cell was always kind of the underdog of the Cell decks imo, normally being outshone by Namekian Cell and struggling to outdamage Red Cell while the latter would rocket to MPPV. This still can't MPPV, but it gives a certain level of utility that Empowered didn't.

Weirdly, I actually love that it can't MPPV. I'm loving that Saiyan seems to be the deck that both has the easiest time MPPV'ing (Rampaging), but also the hardest since half their Masteries stop it or make it harder. It's somehow offering an identity to Saiyan in the background noise of playtesting, at least to my eyes. It also means that Saiyan decks are more likely to run the MPPV-stopping level ups like Goku's Kaioken or Cell's Absorption. Now if we can just ban Unleashed to really force people into different card choices...

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We NEED more cards that can remove attached cards from play.  Then cards like Saiyan Sword Skill and Unleashed would be a little less game-breaking. Focused Assault is Heroes only and others are limited to a specific style, such as Red Mule Kick, or named cards, such as Trunks' Knee Bash.

Although in the case of Saiyan Sword skill I just /sigh, forego endurance for one attack, and let them crit me once lol.  O. Trunks was annoying because his level 2 can regenerate Saiyan Sword Skill from the banished zone.  Broly would never see it again and would have to pull out multiple copies from the deck, and even then Broly gun' crit you quickly.  xD

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26 minutes ago, sh0ryu_repp4 said:

 

I am looking back into building 18 atm tbh 

It's a trap! (She's got a schlong)

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2 hours ago, sh0ryu_repp4 said:

Sword Trunks, Kid Trunks, and Freegeta are all SUPER viable in Oppressive. I would argue Kid Trunks actually got BETTER with the nerf.

I am looking back into building 18 atm tbh 

Once I get set 10 (sure hope I don't have to wait as long...just now getting set 9 at the Dennis Games on the 16th), I would like to build an 18 deck as well.  I am considering Blue Resolute or Black Conflict atm.  Maybe Red Amplified? I don't even own any Android 18's Toss yet.  I should pick 3 of them up on ebay since they will be cheap as free.

Is Freegeta the Evo stack?  I didn't even think about that.  Unlike Rampaging, he can actually use the oppressive discard effect. 

 

1 hour ago, ChangelingBard said:

When isn't it a shit storm?

rofl you guys are always making me happy that I am not on/do not follow Retro, even though I do miss out on news.

 

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I’m so glad I have you guys. Retro is in a shit storm to the point I can’t bring myself to post there. Half the people are ignorant and self-admittedly bad at the game but have no problem parroting someone else’s thoughts. It’s as if the world has forgotten how to have an original thought. Then when someone tries to have a conversation it degrades. 

There are people now arguing that a one-sided deck that locked your opponent out of being able to react for most if not all the game is what the game needed. At that point I started crying.

Here are my thoughts on the situation.

  1. No deck that is designed to consistently and successfully create a non-interactive environment should exist no matter what game you are playing.
  2. A card like Unleashed is absolutely needed in this game. There are decks that rely on instant level cards to function well and handing over the win to an MPPV deck is not a good thing for them. If the development team would just design a card that can rocket levels, has a reasonable cost that doesn’t hand a win to your opponent, and cannot be used to hurt your opponent they could ban Unleashed and move on. Goku's Kaio-Ken is a perfect example of said card. 
  3. Many of these players general experience with a competitive format for any game has been entirely or mostly locals. I’m not trying to insult them, but you can tell by how they defend their point of view they don’t understand how meta works and what’s needed to keep it flowing. The developers made a great call listening to the feedback of large event veterans who put several play-testing games under their belt.

When it comes to balance there are generally 2 types of broken concepts. Cards or card combinations that go off and once started cannot be stopped. For obvious reasons these things are bad for the game and most people can see them skilled or not. The one that gets people confused and riled up is the other concept. Over-Centralization. Something is over-centralizing when it controls the meta to a point that you either play it or build a significant portion of your deck to defeat it. The problem is that it creates a stale meta and leaves other decks in a situation where they are always inconsistent. Either you built your deck to beat the centralizer and you get stomped by off decks or you built an off deck and you get stomped by centralizer. Black Krillin is the example most people will understand. He wasn’t broken in a way you couldn’t respond and win. He forced the meta to build around him creating the over-centralizing problem.

My idea for a replacement for Unleased would be:

Nothing%20To%20Lose.png

Not sure about the title or the image but it's what I went with. With some play-testing and critiquing it could work. It doesn't screw your opponent, cuts your MPPV, and has a significant cost considering how much decks rely on discard recursion. Feel free to provide insight. Also, yes I straight borrowed that shit from Super Android 17's GT stack. If they're not going to give me Super 17 I'll find a way. 

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@Majin Goo I straight up love that card you posited there WAY more than I should xD That's actually pretty excellent. Only issue I can see is that the decks that rely on Unleashed may find it to be too slow since it can't be used until several turns in, but time will tell if that's a major issue.

I also really like that breakdown of what basically makes a broken card in concept. I'd probably say to add a layer speaking about cost to benefit to expand the conversation, but it does sum up the issue in a lot of modern card gaming very, very well.

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I would much prefer that card to unleashed. May need some balancing tweaks to make it a little more playable, but much more reasonable than unleashed. Also the name doesn't fit the rest of it, but that's just a flavor thing.

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29 minutes ago, v3rse said:

I would much prefer that card to unleashed. May need some balancing tweaks to make it a little more playable, but much more reasonable than unleashed. Also the name doesn't fit the rest of it, but that's just a flavor thing.

I originally thought about it being 4 or 5 cards but wasn't sure if it made the card too powerful. I also thought about it being three cards but with a 6 anger gain to make it easier to play against. 

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14 minutes ago, Majin Goo said:

I originally thought about it being 4 or 5 cards but wasn't sure if it made the card too powerful. I also thought about it being three cards but with a 6 anger gain to make it easier to play against. 

Honestly it could have no cost and still be more fair than unleashed. But I like the flavor of your card.

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Unleashed could use a downgrade, but I agree that such a card type is necessary.  It makes many mediocre MPs playable.  I still think they should have made Unleashed 1 per or something. 

I feel like Clash of Wills would have been fine if maybe you upped the cost a teensy bit and make it so it does not also level your opponent (something along the lines of Goku's Kaioken, but that was already mentioned above).

That's my main problem with Unleashed.  What is the point of playing ANY of the other non-named level up cards?  I mean seriously.  Unleashed just poops on all of them.  Android Presence is all right I guess, but Unleashed is STILL better, so why bother (unless you REALLY want a high count of android cards in your deck). 

The only reason to play something like Clash of Wills is if you for whatever reason don't want to put the attaching cards in your deck.  But they are good.  And Unleashed could jump multiple levels.  "The only reason to play Clash of Wills"...when I read that aloud it doesn't even make sense.

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14 minutes ago, Artificial Human said:

Why not just Freeze/Ban Saiyan Sword Skill? Seems a whole lot easier than changing two cards and is the root cause of why the Mastery is way too consistent.

For Saiyan Oppressive Mastery my best guess was to prevent centralization of design. In its original form  it would have been impossible to design for this game without tip toeing around S. OP. In its second form the Mastery was more manageable but still forced you to strongly consider what it can do while designing. 

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