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Thearbiter20x6

Black Mischievous 17 anybody try yet?

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     Have any of you dabbled in Black Mischievous 17 yet?  In certain matchups that deck would dominate...vs Blue Resolute, vs Goku...

     My main concern is that I feel like the deck would hit like a wet noodle without Android 20 in play.  I'm curious. You would also be camping level 1 so while you are free of the burden of including anger-raising cards, you would need to have some stage gain.

     I have always wanted to make a deck that purely focuses on picking apart cards from your opponent's deck using cards like Black Searching Technique, Enraged Assault, Scout maneuver, etc.  This may be the archetype I use to try it out.  I could also see it having  issues controlling enemy anger/fighting MPPV.

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I've not yet had the chance to really give the deck a go myself, but I've been lurking around a few of my old group chats with my mates back in Aus. From what I can tell from their conversations, the decks biggest issue seems to just be keeping up with pure beatdown decks even more so than MPPV (honestly, Black Trick Shot seems to be the saving grace in this respect since it near enough shuts down levelling for a turn alongside Black's innately controlling nature). The big issue that seems to still plague the style, which you noted, is a lack of a really solid win con beyond just playing interference. Not to say it's bad, but it always seems a bit more like you're playing a character like Ky in Guilty Gear with this kind of deck; you've got the tools necessary to win, but because you don't hit as hard, you have to play better for longer.

It's been said a lot, but I can't help feeling like Black is the one style that would benefit the most from the introduction of a side-board/Sensei deck since they're just excellent at killing any specific complex strategy, but fall a bit behind when confronted with more straight-forward opponents.

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I'm testing videl mischievous right now. And so far I have to agree. I chose videl because I thought she'd be enough to patch up some of the damage issues with her AT setting. She also controls really well. However, so far what I have found is that I control the whole game and still wind up losing in the end. Presumably just not enough damage output since it's working pretty well defensively. Maybe I just don't have the mix right yet. I'm also considering other mps.

I imagine 17 would be a more extreme version. More control, less damage output. But I haven't tried it yet.

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So last night, I found this:

This is Kelly's build.  I made it today because I'm just going to be straight honest, I was going to take Drawku to the Dennis Games this Saturday.

...but as I feared, even with my crazy build, the simple fact of the matter is that Black Mischievous 17 is a HARD counter to Goku unless I get extremely lucky with my counter-counter cards. I have a couple other decks I have tried against it that can perform decently well, but not as consistently as I want.  This build is GOOD.  I'm super worried about it.  If you can force 17 to level early and he never draws his Namek Ball 2 to de-level himself, it's pretty much GG in your favor.  But you either have to land an early dig or draw Earth Ball 2 quickly (yes I am rocking EDB2 because of this JUST to force 17 to level).

Now I'm completely unsure if I want to go with Red Ruthless Goku, Orange Retribution Garlic Jr., or Saiyan Rampaging Nappa (YOU HEARD ME RAMPAGING).  I've been playtesting all day today and it's making my head hurt.  There has to be SOMETHING I can do.  I don't know how many people actually have set 10 cards ready to go yet, but I feel like running Goku is suicide if a hard counter exists.  I might stomp everybody else, but this 17 deck...

EDIT: The  ol' Adept Gohan would probably do quite well actually, but I am NOT using the deck I literally used in the last tournament I went to, which was even at THE SAME STORE.

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Yeah I was thinking mill made more sense than damage output for 17. I mean it's possible he won't even run 17 too. This video was posted weeks ago. It's possible he found too many counters to it to make it worth running or any other number of reasons. Also, you may never face the deck or never face it in the finals. Yes it may be a gamble, but it might be worth it.

I assume you've actually tested the match up extensively? You seem like you test pretty thoroughly. Is it really a hopeless match up?

I say go with your gut. A lot of the time it's more important to be comfortable with your deck than having the absolute best match ups. You can't always predict match ups, and pairings come down to chance a lot of the time. Knowing your deck is something you can control. Many friends in my play group have taken a different deck than their main deck to regionals (due to predicted match ups) in the past and ended up regretting it. Myself included.

But retribution garlic sounds like a deck I'd like to see played, lol.

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52 minutes ago, v3rse said:

Yeah I was thinking mill made more sense than damage output for 17. I mean it's possible he won't even run 17 too. This video was posted weeks ago. It's possible he found too many counters to it to make it worth running or any other number of reasons. Also, you may never face the deck or never face it in the finals. Yes it may be a gamble, but it might be worth it.

I assume you've actually tested the match up extensively? You seem like you test pretty thoroughly. Is it really a hopeless match up?

I say go with your gut. A lot of the time it's more important to be comfortable with your deck than having the absolute best match ups. You can't always predict match ups, and pairings come down to chance a lot of the time. Knowing your deck is something you can control. Many friends in my play group have taken a different deck than their main deck to regionals (due to predicted match ups) in the past and ended up regretting it. Myself included.

But retribution garlic sounds like a deck I'd like to see played, lol.

There's a story to that.  A very sad story.

I am not sure if you were at the Dragon Prix in New Orleans last year in November.  The prototype to this red ruthless goku build was what I had planned to run.  I tested it and it was hilarious.  It was when unleashed was absolute meta (pre-banish), but I was not running it in my deck.  In fact, I wasn't running most of the things people expected. I felt great and I was ready for the Dragon Prix!

About 4-5 days before the event I caught a glimpse of someone in my locals running blue resolute drawku.  I said, "Huh.  I can see that being a monster."  So I tried it out and tested against it.  It was so difficult for my red deck to overcome and I figured many people would be running it.  I got so scared of the deck that I decided to join them instead of beat them.

I ran the meta deck.

But my Unleashed are very, very shy, unlike my opponents'.  I went 3-4 in the tournament after spending over $1,000 on the trip (which is no big deal in the long run but still...).  My Ruthless build would have been PERFECT for that tournament.

I got scared and instead of using a home-brewed deck, I went with a cookie-cutter meta build.  It is my biggest Pan Z regret and it still bothers me to this day.  NEVER AGAIN.

 

I fixed up Goku and actually was able to make only minor changes that actually make the matchup vs 17 winnable.  It is by no means certain but now it is still possible.  I had to switch up my strategy and add some more setup clear (black power up is such a pest).  Fortunately, I was able to do it without taking away much from the soul of the deck, and if I fight orange it will pay off in spades.

I'm going with my home-brew Goku.  He never got his chance...I doubted him once, but this time I'm going to give him his fair shot.  And like you said, who knows if anybody will run it or if I will even face it? I spent all day testing the matchup with the three above decks.  Too much time, in fact...my brain is drained of energy. 

 

Don't worry.  Ret Garlic will happen someday lol.  I am on a quest to make good decks with bad MPs or masteries.  I made finals with Adept and I want to win with Rampaging and Tag Team someday. :P So why Ruthless Goku?  Well, let's just say I am using some...unusual card choices that will catch my foes unawares!  Or at least, that's the plan.

But my playtesting is nothing compared to the people putting out these videos.  I went crazy today because I am not worried about ANY other deck and I needed to make sure I don't get sucker punched in the top cut because I ignored Mischievous 17.  At least now, I am ready to give that matchup my very best because I am prepared.  I doubt I will do any more testing except maybe the night before as a warm up.  Gotta give exams and grade things.

Grading....oh how I loathe thee.

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I am so bloody interested in that Goku deck you keep talking about, and I implore you that if you can find a way to livestream it/record it, please do so |:

On a side, do you ever test on OCTGN? Or is it mostly real-world testing?
What is your process?

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31 minutes ago, Denithan said:

I am so bloody interested in that Goku deck you keep talking about, and I implore you that if you can find a way to livestream it/record it, please do so |:

On a side, do you ever test on OCTGN? Or is it mostly real-world testing?
What is your process?

I play games against myself in person lol. xD  I try to make the best decisions per deck based on the knowledge available to each imaginary player.  Sometimes it is difficult to do.

Hopefully I win the first few games at the Dennis Games like I did with Adept Gohan because then I will go on stream and you can see it!  After I went 3-0 at East Kai with Adept, they must have said, "Wait, Orange Adept is winning games?  Wtf?   STREAM DAT" because they invited me to go on stream for game 4.  Crushed it, too!  Gotta look good for the camera.

Too bad I got bodied on stream in the finals by that same deck. >.>

I reeeeally hope the deck lives up to the hype. It crushes any other deck I throw at it.  Only Adept Gohan can fight it with any sort of consistency and even then the Ruthless Goku tends to have the upper hand in that matchup.

The only reason this Goku deck is different is because of MY SECRET WEAPON!  MUAHAHAHA

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2 minutes ago, sh0ryu_repp4 said:

Mischievous 17 is SOOOOOO good

Yeah...if any deck has the capability to ruin my fun, it will be this.  I am banking on the fact that not many people will have set 10 proxies/run Kelly's build.  I put in some good "IN CASE OF 17, BREAK GLASS" cards that hopefully will be there when I need them...and I need to draw MY SECRET WEAPON asap.

With the Oppressive Trunks nerf, I felt pretty much invincible (except I'm not actually invincible as I can think of several off-decks that could cause me trouble). Now I have a serious contender to overcome and that is easier said than done with Drawku.

I actually wish my Perceptive Tien deck wasn't "under construction" because that might actually be able to do some damage if control decks spring up. I'm unsure what direction I want to take it in and I need my set 9 cards.

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Although I will say this: an obvious counter to Black 17 is a Future Gohan deck that camps level 1.  Once I get my set 10 stuff, I think Blue Resourceful Gohan is gonna happen, baby!

So everybody go to the Dennis Games with a level 1 camp Future Gohan Deck and take out my natural predator for me plz

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Noooo! Don't share the Future Gohan tech! I was going to go for Red Amplifying Future Gohan or Blue Tag Team F. Gohan xD
Sadly though, I can't compete in any tournaments. The joys of being not-American.

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1 hour ago, Denithan said:

Noooo! Don't share the Future Gohan tech! I was going to go for Red Amplifying Future Gohan or Blue Tag Team F. Gohan xD
Sadly though, I can't compete in any tournaments. The joys of being not-American.

Ooooo tag F. Gohan would be a pretty cool control build! Grab Chi-chi or Piccolo for some early defense or Krillin to kill Orange dead.  Plus you can nullify their power.  Oh this is sounding pretty good.

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5 hours ago, Thearbiter20x6 said:

Ooooo tag F. Gohan would be a pretty cool control build! Grab Chi-chi or Piccolo for some early defense or Krillin to kill Orange dead.  Plus you can nullify their power.  Oh this is sounding pretty good.

tbh, Blue Tag Team is probably my favorite mastery for the above reason. It makes for a really good counter-counter deck depending on what Ally you pull out, and in match-ups where you don't need a specific counter, you can just grab allies that naturally help your game state.

As aforementioned, I'm currently working on an F. Gohan build for it, but my favorite deck is probably Blue Tag Team Drill Trunks. The deck is insanely strong thanks to Trunks - Protective and Blue Dominance. The only real big issue with the deck is that it takes a combat or two to set-up, but you're not exactly a sitting duck for those two turns either. And thanks to a few choice techs and the aforementioned Dominance, even against Ally/Drill Control decks, it's fairly easy to net back resources (also, good bloody luck physical beating through it once the drills are on the field, or winning through MPPV with the sheer number of delevelling/anger to 0 cards in it).
I only wish I could actually compete with it xD Though, I might get a rude shock if I did since my old locals almost exclusively played physical beats. If I ram into Energy Beats, my only option is to go all-out aggro and hope for the best.
Oh, and probably somewhat worthwhile bringing up one of my friend's rocking Blue Tag Team Frieza in the FanZ format to stupid success back where I was. Turns out dropping King Cold/Cooler Ally and auto-Golden Frieza with in-built Ally Search is actually respectable. Too bad I've not seen more people experimenting with it xD

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1 hour ago, Denithan said:

tbh, Blue Tag Team is probably my favorite mastery for the above reason. It makes for a really good counter-counter deck depending on what Ally you pull out, and in match-ups where you don't need a specific counter, you can just grab allies that naturally help your game state.

As aforementioned, I'm currently working on an F. Gohan build for it, but my favorite deck is probably Blue Tag Team Drill Trunks. The deck is insanely strong thanks to Trunks - Protective and Blue Dominance. The only real big issue with the deck is that it takes a combat or two to set-up, but you're not exactly a sitting duck for those two turns either. And thanks to a few choice techs and the aforementioned Dominance, even against Ally/Drill Control decks, it's fairly easy to net back resources (also, good bloody luck physical beating through it once the drills are on the field, or winning through MPPV with the sheer number of delevelling/anger to 0 cards in it).
I only wish I could actually compete with it xD Though, I might get a rude shock if I did since my old locals almost exclusively played physical beats. If I ram into Energy Beats, my only option is to go all-out aggro and hope for the best.
Oh, and probably somewhat worthwhile bringing up one of my friend's rocking Blue Tag Team Frieza in the FanZ format to stupid success back where I was. Turns out dropping King Cold/Cooler Ally and auto-Golden Frieza with in-built Ally Search is actually respectable. Too bad I've not seen more people experimenting with it xD

I tried Blue Frieza and I just COULD NOT get it to work.  Didn't stand a chance against my other decks, but I am almost positive I was doing it wrong.

I would love to take your challenge and put my Orange Adept Gohan against your tag trunks so you can see the power of Orange Freezing Drill. >:D  It's one physical beats deck that simply FINDS A WAY (although if people are running black again I'll just start getting defensive bursted all game T_T).

Blue Tag Vegeta is fun because I can pull out Dr. Briefs if I don't need tech and suddenly BAM I'm drawku with allies and a cool discard hate level 1 freestyle buffer!

Trunks protective is awesome.  One day I'm going to troll around and use him in Orange Retribution, pull out Orange Restructuring Drill on turn 1, tutor Hidden Power Drill with Trunks, then laugh immensely as my opponent only has 2 power stages to work with every combat.

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13 hours ago, Thearbiter20x6 said:

I tried Blue Frieza and I just COULD NOT get it to work.  Didn't stand a chance against my other decks, but I am almost positive I was doing it wrong.

I would love to take your challenge and put my Orange Adept Gohan against your tag trunks so you can see the power of Orange Freezing Drill. >:D  It's one physical beats deck that simply FINDS A WAY (although if people are running black again I'll just start getting defensive bursted all game T_T).

Blue Tag Vegeta is fun because I can pull out Dr. Briefs if I don't need tech and suddenly BAM I'm drawku with allies and a cool discard hate level 1 freestyle buffer!

Trunks protective is awesome.  One day I'm going to troll around and use him in Orange Retribution, pull out Orange Restructuring Drill on turn 1, tutor Hidden Power Drill with Trunks, then laugh immensely as my opponent only has 2 power stages to work with every combat.

To be honest, I'd be kind of interested in going up against the Orange Adept Gohan xD I've never versed it before, and I'm kind of curious if my tech allies, anti-drill attacks, and searchable Trunks' Knee Bash is enough to sway the balance back.

And honestly, the issue with Blue Frieza is knowing when to divert damage to the allies and working with mostly flat life damage. I'm not even going to pretend to know how to pull this, but I've seen it enough to know that it can be infuriating to do substantial damage xD

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4 hours ago, Denithan said:

To be honest, I'd be kind of interested in going up against the Orange Adept Gohan xD I've never versed it before, and I'm kind of curious if my tech allies, anti-drill attacks, and searchable Trunks' Knee Bash is enough to sway the balance back.

And honestly, the issue with Blue Frieza is knowing when to divert damage to the allies and working with mostly flat life damage. I'm not even going to pretend to know how to pull this, but I've seen it enough to know that it can be infuriating to do substantial damage xD

Concerning Frieza, exactly.  I just can't bring the hurt and I have always sucked at control.  I HAVE to enter ALL THE TIME because that's where the action is, baby!

Orange Adept Gohan is actually a real pest for ally decks.  Unlike the Adept Gohan build that was lurking in the background for a bit, I toss out disaster drill completely and camp level 1.  You are getting an ally banished every combat AT LEAST!  Knee bash would actually be pretty annoying though and you can search for it with sword drill.  But even without drills it can dish out some serious damage.  It is also SUPER aggro.  I would say it is even more aggro than Broly.  I enter almost every turn. xD 

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15 minutes ago, Thearbiter20x6 said:

Orange Adept Gohan is actually a real pest for ally decks.  Unlike the Adept Gohan build that was lurking in the background for a bit, I toss out disaster drill completely and camp level 1.  You are getting an ally banished every combat AT LEAST!  Knee bash would actually be pretty annoying though and you can search for it with sword drill.  But even without drills it can dish out some serious damage.  It is also SUPER aggro.  I would say it is even more aggro than Broly.  I enter almost every turn. xD 

Ah, but that's also kind of the fun thing about Blue Tag Team Drill Trunks xD It's a Level 2 Camp deck that searches out all the drills it needs in the first two combats. After that, you can lose either the allies or the drills (losing both is a disaster zone though), and you're still alright unlike most ally decks or drill decks. If you have both, you're easily swinging 5 cards hands EVERY combat, and are constantly entering just to prove a point. Right now though, I'm trying to test what happens when I remove some of my tutoring cards and put in Devilish Sword Strike and other new Sword cards. Thus far, I'm not happy |: I like tutoring. Especially when it's tutoring Allies and Drills. Also, Bulma - Taking a Drag has been disappointing.

Weirdly, thanks to Tag Team, Gohan banishing allies becomes a free Rejuv o-O

I will throw out there, we should probably just play on OCTGN sometime xD It's not quite the same, but hey.

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1 hour ago, Denithan said:

Ah, but that's also kind of the fun thing about Blue Tag Team Drill Trunks xD It's a Level 2 Camp deck that searches out all the drills it needs in the first two combats. After that, you can lose either the allies or the drills (losing both is a disaster zone though), and you're still alright unlike most ally decks or drill decks. If you have both, you're easily swinging 5 cards hands EVERY combat, and are constantly entering just to prove a point. Right now though, I'm trying to test what happens when I remove some of my tutoring cards and put in Devilish Sword Strike and other new Sword cards. Thus far, I'm not happy |: I like tutoring. Especially when it's tutoring Allies and Drills. Also, Bulma - Taking a Drag has been disappointing.

Weirdly, thanks to Tag Team, Gohan banishing allies becomes a free Rejuv o-O

I will throw out there, we should probably just play on OCTGN sometime xD It's not quite the same, but hey.

One of these days I will stop being lazy and set up OCTGN. 

It actually sounds like an interesting matchup.  You'd probably be able to keep my orange freezing drills under control with trunks knee bash and would have your physical defense level 2 power, unless I can somehow catch you without your blue dominance/attach an android arm breaker.  Or maybe I'll just have to eat three drill banishes and then keep on truckin'.  Although if you also have blue betrayal... >.>

At that point I'd probably just say "SCREW IT IT'S TIME FOR A DAMAGE RACE!!!"

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Back to the main topic, now that I think about it, Blue Resourceful mastery in general is a good counter to Android 17.  Anything with a way to force him off level 1 has the potential to greatly reduce the potency of that deck.

I almost tossed some Red Premonition in Goku but that requires lowering me a level which in any other matchup sucks, plus leveling up against Black Mischievous 17 as Goku is...difficult.  I rarely even hit level 2.  I have yet to hit level 3 in any game.  Normally I can gain MASSIVE amounts of anger, ESPECIALLY if I get the rights draws. 

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2 minutes ago, Thearbiter20x6 said:

I almost tossed some Red Premonition in Goku but that requires lowering me a level which in any other matchup sucks, plus leveling up against Black Mischievous 17 as Goku is...difficult.  I rarely even hit level 2.  I have yet to hit level 3 in any game.  Normally I can gain MASSIVE amounts of anger, ESPECIALLY if I get the rights draws. 

Clash of Wills/I'll Dig Your Grave?

Really, my big question is how scared are you of MPPV? Do you think you can control the opponent if they start aiming for it?

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1 minute ago, Denithan said:

Clash of Wills/I'll Dig Your Grave?

Really, my big question is how scared are you of MPPV? Do you think you can control the opponent if they start aiming for it?

So...I kind of cannot run Digs.  There's a reason. I promise.  It's a real shame cuz dig is GREAT against 17. 

The Ruthless Goku deck performed fairly well against oppressive trunks.  If it could handle that fairly consistently, I should be more than okay for any other mppv build (the only one I am slightly concerned with is retribution cooler because I always have trouble with cooler. >:( That crapface is HARD to kill).

My deck can actually mppv out so I do not want to disqualify myself from that condition.  I've reasonably done all I can do prepare for the 17 matchup and I know the correct attack plan, so I'll just hope I don't fight it and that my playtesting will pay off if I do (or I draw EDB2 on the first turn and they don't get NDB2 xD).

 

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6 minutes ago, Thearbiter20x6 said:

So...I kind of cannot run Digs.  There's a reason. I promise.  It's a real shame cuz dig is GREAT against 17.

What is going on with your deck?! xD
 
Honestly, at this point, I feel like if you hype up A17 anymore that you'll find yourself losing as a result of misplay more than because of the match-up. So it's probably good to just go in with confidence at this juncture, and if you do run into it, to hit it as hard as you can |:

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