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10 hours ago, sh0ryu_repp4 said:

and another thing is, while there are counters to Mecha (not the crap Bandai posted though) this still doesn't solve the problem because it is perpetuating a degenerate meta. Play Mecha or the decks that counter Mecha, and that is it. There is also the fact that Mecha is a problem in general and will continue to be even more so the further the game goes along. There are so many archetypes that are just better to run in Mecha than in the archetype they are supposed to be run in because of how the card operates. Mecha Apes is the PERFECT example of that. If Apes really were limited to running effectively in Bardock decks, it wouldn't be a big problem, but the fact that Mecha does it SO MUCH BETTER is the problem. It is just bad design through and through.

It really is the world's easiest fix too. Just make Mecha like virtually every other leader with similar "Activate: Main" effects and limit it to once per turn. Just that simple change solves the whole problem. It stops it from being completely broken, but makes the card and its decks still usable. The added bonus being that it frees SO MANY other decks to being viable again.

Also, personally, I don't believe any of the counters for Mecha are as good as Mecha itself.

lol. That's the exact errata I suggested elsewhere yesterday.

Make no mistake, I do think something needs to be done, and if they repeat/make similar mistakes with Set 4 and don't immediately fix it like Babidi/Trunks, I'll jump on the bandwagon. But for now, I agree with them. I think different mentalities towards deck building need to come forward before we swing anything. It's been less than a week, cool your jets. If adapting is futile, swing the Ban/Errata Hammer and swing it hard. For now, if things can hold it down, it'll probably start to see less play and things will balance out. I don't want to see it power crept to, let alone passed, but hold it in it's tracks.

I don't think the Cell deck is as bad as you make out. It isn't running Imperfect Cell either, they're focusing on a more defensive early game to deal with Frieza. :/ They say you can side out those 12 Blue cards, maybe if you try out this deck, you should main the Cells and 17, side into the Blue? Just a thought?

And seriously? People don't run the FREE Blockers? They're free to play cards, jeezes. They attract control away from other things and act as Attack Negates if left alone. I've been running just the set of those if I don't have anything juicier like the Revenge 16 in everything. Free cards are always good, even if they're something non-flashy like a vanilla blocker. They're not even circumstantially free with the right Leader either.

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Exactly.  It hasn't even been a week since the set released and some people are already convinced the meta is broken.  Frieza didn't even win the event Shoryu mentioned, despite taking up half of top cut.  The meta has barely even had time to develop; make no mistake that the people who actually build and test decks instead of playing the flavor of the week/month are coming up with ways to beat Mecha.  I remember when set 2 dropped the Goku Rose promo shot up to $100 because people were convinced Zamasu was unkillable and Goku Black was meta.

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Just throwing out there, about my only dog in this race is the fact that their official response to these worries was to (subtly) blame the players.

I can understand where you're both coming from in being frustrated with people reacting this harshly so soon after the set's release, and I can understand their stance being "Let's see how the meta develops." But how they have handled it is NOT good, and should not be applauded. Their statement emphasized a point of player's not knowing what they're doing, and defended their design behind that notion. They went on the defensive, and used evasive wording to shift responsibility. That's something you really want to keep an eye out for if this becomes how they handle complaints.

A similar response in the same vein easily could've been to simply state that they are keeping a close-eye on Mecha-Frieza, and are waiting to observe how the game shapes after this release while explaining the principle of the watch list. This achieves one of their messages of "we do not believe it is as bad as the complaints suggest", without casting shade.
Then, they could've presented their sample decks in a separate announcement the next day alongside a variety of other strategies (including Mecha-Frieza itself), presenting them as decks for new players to try out with some mention of "Oh, this particular strategy works very well against our own Mecha-Frieza deck." This, in no way, would've insinuated that the players needed to git gud, and also doesn't present the decks as some kind of "holy grail" to winning the match-up (which will 100% frustrate people MORE if this continues to be an issue over the next few events).

Ultimately, it's just bad PR.

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So, after being to a few tournaments my views have changed a bit regarding Mecha Frieza.

  • Mecha Frieza with Goku GT is tough but beatable; well-timed negates and blockers go far in this matchup but it is far from unwinnable.
  • Mecha Frieza with apes is total shananigans and playing against it has been the least amount of fun I've ever had playing a card game.  The deck gets out multiple big blockers with additional effects (double strike or crit) that enter active mode at the end of the turn with ease, and then another play gives them all barrier. 

When it comes down to it, I think there are multiple problem cards here:

  • Mecha Freiza is the obvious one.  Bandai should consider changing his power to once per turn to do away with 1-cost spell shenanigans that the dev team will have to design around for the lifetime of the game.  His power is too much of a liability going forward, so I think it makes sense to change him in some way.
  • Planet Vegeta should get an outright ban.  The card is supremely broken.  Other cards that search for 1 cost have more restrictions on them and this one is pretty open in its search criteria.  But that's not really what makes it so bad.  The worst part is that great apes enter active mode at the end of the turn.  A 1-cost spell that nets you a card in hand probably shouldnt have the capability to put multiple 3-5 cost cards into active mode at the end of the turn.  Especially since those cards have combinations of effects like 20k/blocker/crit and 20k/blocker/double strike, making them both offensive and defensive powerhouses.  This card should have never been printed.
  • Shugesh is another that needs an errata or outright ban.  The devs had the good idea to limit the new A16 super combo to green androids, so why not restrict the new yellow super combo to yellow saiyans?  And playing a 3-cost card for free is just ridiculous and does not fairly compare to the other super combos. Changing it to 2 cost would go a long way to fix this card.

I will agree with Shoryu now, the game is not in a good state at the moment.  The devs appear to have designed the game into a corner; I am hoping they fix it soon.

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On the topic of Planet Vegeta, I was actually debating if it would be worth it to go for a Yellow Super Saiyan 3 Goku deck that focused on abusing Planet Vegeta.

I don't think it'd do shit to Mecha, but eh. Seems like a neat idea.

That was before the product announcements though |: Now I'm hesitant to invest that much.

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I just want to point out something very interesting...

UFS recently had their Cowboy Bebop set release. One of the decks, Twinkle Murdock, was EXTREMELY powerful. It encouraged non interaction, and made lots of decks non viable because of its existence. Nationals happened shortly after. The deck did not win, but placed very high.

The folks at Jasco were aware of it, kept an eye on it, and promptly banned it after the event because it encouraged a bad meta.

and here we are, still waiting for Bandai to even SAY SOMETHING about Mecha Frieza...

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Jasco is pretty quick to ban things. When I was trying UFS with the megaman sets I was kinda upset that they banned Gemini Man so quickly. Out of Rise of the Masters him amd Magnet were my two favorites  (outside of UFS play, more I like them from the mm universe) and i was pretty bummed out over it. I would much rather see errata's than bans. Rotations also work.

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1 hour ago, Vile said:

I would much rather see errata's than bans. Rotations also work.

I actually overall agree with that stance of erratas > bans, but only provided that the erratas actually effectuate change. Don't give me none of this "Unleashed is now Banish After Use" nonsense, that card just needed to flat do less.

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I feel like all they need to do is make Mecha once per turn, or maybe change it so it can only be used on yellow extra cards. Then change Planet Vegeta to require a Saiyan Leader. All it would take is a small change/errata to equalize the meta for DBS. I can't complain too much though I suppose since my Machine Mutants can usually knock out Yellow/Blue Mecha Apes, but Red/Yellow Apes are the problem. I'm trying different changes to my decks to see how they fair against Mecha Apes. I have yet to figure out how to use my deck to beat the red variant but blue isn't terrible as I can usually swarm the field faster than they can, and if they don't get that vegeta, I murder all of those apes with attack reduction. I just wish I could see variety at locals again instead of EVERYONE and their mother running Mecha Apes.

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I've been away from the game for awhile, and it's mainly because of this card.  After looking at Set 3 meta, and playing a dozen games, I honestly feel like if they changed Mecha Frieza, the game would be perfectly fine. No more crazy early OTK (they'll still exist, but need to be done later in the game), as all those decks are supported by Mecha Frieza. At this point, I don't know how stupid the designers can be - all of these problem decks are caused by this card. 

Now, the change to the card, I'd rather see it banned. The ability is too powerful unless you make it something like "Drop a life to play the card -1, limit once per turn", and is only going to get more, and more powerful the more extra cards are made.

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On ‎3‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 4:06 PM, Jarrett said:

I've been away from the game for awhile, and it's mainly because of this card.  After looking at Set 3 meta, and playing a dozen games, I honestly feel like if they changed Mecha Frieza, the game would be perfectly fine. No more crazy early OTK (they'll still exist, but need to be done later in the game), as all those decks are supported by Mecha Frieza. At this point, I don't know how stupid the designers can be - all of these problem decks are caused by this card. 

Now, the change to the card, I'd rather see it banned. The ability is too powerful unless you make it something like "Drop a life to play the card -1, limit once per turn", and is only going to get more, and more powerful the more extra cards are made.

You know what, I would be a little more okay with Mecha not getting a once per turn to his effect if it was send one life to drop to use his effect instead of adding it to hand. I feel that would help to balance it out all the better. Keeps his effect pretty stupid good, but you lose a good amount of the advantage of using his ability since the cards are going to drop now instead of hand. Unless everyone here sees issue with that also. It could add an OverRealm twist to the deck I suppose, but I feel it would help to hit the power of the deck. I still favor a once per turn on him, but it could be another potential way to errata him.

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Another Friday, still no Mecha update, but yet ANOTHER clarification for Cold Bloodlust...

I honestly don't know what Bandai is thinking anymore...

Well besides something like this...

tenor.gif

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4 minutes ago, Vile said:

Meanwhile Vile is using his money from sold cards to purchase more gundams! Becausethis company can't make a proper game  but excel at adult toys! 

Yes I should clarify I mean the division of Bandai that handles this game lol

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And now I await the deck of tears from salty pleabs who don't understand that this is a game. 

 

Wouldn't it be a nutshot if that was an april fools though?

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I don't really think their reasoning is ridiculous. Game needs to be fun and they want new archetypes explored(to sell product) as well as be welcome to new players(again to sell product), then we top it off with to not be backed in a corner when designing product(to sell!) As well as to not back players in a corner when designing decks. 

 

It's just a smart business move for them.

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