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With Dragon Ball Super finished, I've been spending a lot of time lately thinking about how good or bad it really was. What did it do for the Dragon Ball series, extended lore, video games, and merch? How has it helped/affected the anime industry, HAS it affected the industry, and how does it match-up to Z, or even GT?

Now I want to preface this by saying that I don't actually have any figures. So I straight up cannot make educated (or even informed) guesses as to how it's affected the anime industry, or how well it's merch has sold. About the most I can say is that Super seemed to have attracted a fair amount of attention, with a LOT of anime-based serials focusing heavily on the series and doing articles episode by episode (which isn't too surprising for a headline Shounen anime), and quite a few streaming services paying it credit for growths in website traffic. How this has actually translated to the industry however, is beyond me.

But addressing Super directly, for me, is a... Complicated feeling? Like, there's a lot of me on this forum defending certain decisions in Super. And tbh, I am okay with things like, assuming Trunks learned Galick Gun from Vegeta in the two years they spent alone together. I mean, if nothing else, I really doubt that Vegeta didn't at least TRY to improve his Galick Gun, and that's probably how we got the Final Flash in the first place. Unless he just... Winged the Final Flash against Cell.
Likewise, I'm kind of... Well no, I was never okay with Super Saiyan Rage, but I could live with it. The main thing that bothered me was that it wasn't necessary. Like, if Trunks had just turned Super Saiyan 3, I would've gotten the EXACT same pay-off as with Rage, understood the transformation, and would've had none of the complaints.

Actually, to be honest, I have a lot of small complaints like that. Like, why was Super Saiyan Blue necessary? Shit, why did we need Goku and Vegeta being able to turn into SSGod at will?
We actually had just about the perfect "Final Form" transformation for Dragon Ball in God from a narrative standpoint. It was a transformation that didn't invalidate the past achievements and jumps in Super Saiyan because it was inconvenient. You needed a group of Saiyans, you needed to perform the ritual, and it took time to finalize the transformation.
That is an excellent premise, and would've really put pressure on the heroes in certain situations such as with Goku Black. Imagine if the issue with the future timeline wasn't that Black would just magically get stronger for no real reason, but that he could access the Super Saiyan God form without the ritual (or timeline), and there weren't actually enough Saiyans in the future timeline for them to perform the ritual themselves.

But putting these issues to the side, I think I was able to overall stomach most of the developments with Super (even when they actively retconned lore). Heck, I even found myself somewhat getting into it a lot of the time such as with Kaioken Blue (because fuck yeah, Kaioken), or Trunks' Final Flash (respecting that it was meaningless). But the switch for me, personally, was Mastered Ultra Instinct. When the hair went white.
Holy shit did that sour my overall opinion on the show.

In comparing GT and Super, I always kind of worked on the premise of GT had better ideas, but worse execution, while Super has worse ideas, but significantly better execution.
And I genuinely always found that GT's execution was so bad that I just couldn't salvage anything from it. At all. The most I got was that I liked Baby up until the Strongest Form transformations.
But after the reveal of the white hair... Holy shit, I actually think that Super may have been just as bad as GT. About the only positive I can give it is that I can watch certain scenes from it without any negative feelings.

EXCEPT.
That Dragon Ball Super was literally meaningless in regards to plot.

The only thing that Battle of Gods did was introduce GoDs and angels. Frieza is dead at the start of Resurrection "F", and is dead at the end.

Trunks' timeline is destroyed, and there's no fix. Until Whis magically comes up with a fix, and completely undoes any emotional impact of that entire plot-line (going on another side-rant here, this was just an objectively dumb move. Trunks saving his timeline could've been a really huge character arc in the Universe Survival Arc, where he was fighting not to save Universe 7, but to save his future. Not to mention how THAT would have affected Vegeta's motivations.)
Universes are destroyed, and at the end, they're all instantly resurrected.

The only difference in the world of Dragon Ball from the start of Super to the end of Super is that Frieza is alive again. Oh boy, that sure was worth 132 fucking episodes.

And every single one of these arcs HAD to introduce a new transformation. Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan Blue, Blue Kaioken, Rage, Evolution and Ultra Instinct, and then Mastered Ultra Instinct. It was always a meme that Dragon Ball had an issue with transformations, but oh my god, STOP. Please. None of these mean anything, and it's just... At least GT pretty much just did Super Saiyan 4. As of MUI, I actually feel that Super has only done harm to the series.

Anyway, I intended this to be a kind of analysis post. I wanted to break down it's effects on the DBZ video games, and how it has helped from a business perspective, but instead I ended up having a rant.

But what do you guys all think? Did anyone else have the same feeling I did of just being done with it by the time it finished? Or am I just expecting too much?

I'd genuinely love to know the thoughts and feels of other long-term Dragon Ball fans when looking back on Super.

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1 hour ago, Denithan said:

With Dragon Ball Super finished, I've been spending a lot of time lately thinking about how good or bad it really was. What did it do for the Dragon Ball series, extended lore, video games, and merch? How has it helped/affected the anime industry, HAS it affected the industry, and how does it match-up to Z, or even GT?

Now I want to preface this by saying that I don't actually have any figures. So I straight up cannot make educated (or even informed) guesses as to how it's affected the anime industry, or how well it's merch has sold. About the most I can say is that Super seemed to have attracted a fair amount of attention, with a LOT of anime-based serials focusing heavily on the series and doing articles episode by episode (which isn't too surprising for a headline Shounen anime), and quite a few streaming services paying it credit for growths in website traffic. How this has actually translated to the industry however, is beyond me.

But addressing Super directly, for me, is a... Complicated feeling? Like, there's a lot of me on this forum defending certain decisions in Super. And tbh, I am okay with things like, assuming Trunks learned Galick Gun from Vegeta in the two years they spent alone together. I mean, if nothing else, I really doubt that Vegeta didn't at least TRY to improve his Galick Gun, and that's probably how we got the Final Flash in the first place. Unless he just... Winged the Final Flash against Cell.
Likewise, I'm kind of... Well no, I was never okay with Super Saiyan Rage, but I could live with it. The main thing that bothered me was that it wasn't necessary. Like, if Trunks had just turned Super Saiyan 3, I would've gotten the EXACT same pay-off as with Rage, understood the transformation, and would've had none of the complaints.

Actually, to be honest, I have a lot of small complaints like that. Like, why was Super Saiyan Blue necessary? Shit, why did we need Goku and Vegeta being able to turn into SSGod at will?
We actually had just about the perfect "Final Form" transformation for Dragon Ball in God from a narrative standpoint. It was a transformation that didn't invalidate the past achievements and jumps in Super Saiyan because it was inconvenient. You needed a group of Saiyans, you needed to perform the ritual, and it took time to finalize the transformation.
That is an excellent premise, and would've really put pressure on the heroes in certain situations such as with Goku Black. Imagine if the issue with the future timeline wasn't that Black would just magically get stronger for no real reason, but that he could access the Super Saiyan God form without the ritual (or timeline), and there weren't actually enough Saiyans in the future timeline for them to perform the ritual themselves.

But putting these issues to the side, I think I was able to overall stomach most of the developments with Super (even when they actively retconned lore). Heck, I even found myself somewhat getting into it a lot of the time such as with Kaioken Blue (because fuck yeah, Kaioken), or Trunks' Final Flash (respecting that it was meaningless). But the switch for me, personally, was Mastered Ultra Instinct. When the hair went white.
Holy shit did that sour my overall opinion on the show.

In comparing GT and Super, I always kind of worked on the premise of GT had better ideas, but worse execution, while Super has worse ideas, but significantly better execution.
And I genuinely always found that GT's execution was so bad that I just couldn't salvage anything from it. At all. The most I got was that I liked Baby up until the Strongest Form transformations.
But after the reveal of the white hair... Holy shit, I actually think that Super may have been just as bad as GT. About the only positive I can give it is that I can watch certain scenes from it without any negative feelings.

EXCEPT.
That Dragon Ball Super was literally meaningless in regards to plot.

The only thing that Battle of Gods did was introduce GoDs and angels. Frieza is dead at the start of Resurrection "F", and is dead at the end.

Trunks' timeline is destroyed, and there's no fix. Until Whis magically comes up with a fix, and completely undoes any emotional impact of that entire plot-line (going on another side-rant here, this was just an objectively dumb move. Trunks saving his timeline could've been a really huge character arc in the Universe Survival Arc, where he was fighting not to save Universe 7, but to save his future. Not to mention how THAT would have affected Vegeta's motivations.)
Universes are destroyed, and at the end, they're all instantly resurrected.

The only difference in the world of Dragon Ball from the start of Super to the end of Super is that Frieza is alive again. Oh boy, that sure was worth 132 fucking episodes.

And every single one of these arcs HAD to introduce a new transformation. Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan Blue, Blue Kaioken, Rage, Evolution and Ultra Instinct, and then Mastered Ultra Instinct. It was always a meme that Dragon Ball had an issue with transformations, but oh my god, STOP. Please. None of these mean anything, and it's just... At least GT pretty much just did Super Saiyan 4. As of MUI, I actually feel that Super has only done harm to the series.

Anyway, I intended this to be a kind of analysis post. I wanted to break down it's effects on the DBZ video games, and how it has helped from a business perspective, but instead I ended up having a rant.

But what do you guys all think? Did anyone else have the same feeling I did of just being done with it by the time it finished? Or am I just expecting too much?

I'd genuinely love to know the thoughts and feels of other long-term Dragon Ball fans when looking back on Super.

... Are... we ... twins?

While there are moments that I enjoyed Super I also felt GT had better plot concepts. Unfortunately, GT got shit as far as execution and direction was concerned and will forever have a bad taste in most people's mouths. Transformations got out of hand with Super and when I first watched Gods I thought that was how it was going to stay. However, that is what trademarks Super. The series of transformation... Unfortunately though the Serious of Unfortunate Transformations ruined my hope that an updated GT would happen (essentially continue on into GT arcs but without the shit execution). However, SSG, Blue, and Instinct negate the idea of SS4 which is still my favorite transformation. So bringing it back would be pointless unless it was somehow the better option. I guess you could argue the transformation to kid rendered Goku unable to access the transformations and make it to where Baby cannot access the God forms due to some kind of impurities. 

I still think it could work though. You could still reasonably use the Black Star Arc, The Baby Arc, and The Shadow Dragon Arc. The Super 17 Arc is no longer needed as we have the 17 we deserve now. You could even make the Shadow Dragons a cosmic balancing act that Gods and Angels are not to interfere with leaving Goku and friends on their own. Beerus would be unlikely to care about Baby's revenge and you could argue that Whis would leave them too it as it was coming to the Saiyans and they must be the ones to overcome it. 

Just some thoughts. 

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It's not too complicated for me. There are a few moments in Super I legitimately enjoy but it's a VERY small few. Otherwise, Super's really bad.

I'll agree on GT being good/great ideas with bad execution but at least they were trying to tell a story across the series. Each arc led into the next with Super 17 being the least linked but arguably still linked.

As a follow-up, what does Resurrection F have to do with Battle of Gods? Nothing. What does the Universe 6 tournament do besides introduce worthless characters and Zeno? Nothing. What do Future Trunks and Zamasu have to do with anything that followed? Nothing. Neither are mentioned again. But we now have two Zenos for no reason. What was the point of the tournament other than new toys and cards transformations? Nothing. Frieza's back. Are we going to kill him again?

Super also can't do drama to save its life. I know people can boil Dragon Ball down to just people fighting but I think it can be more than that. There's a lot of heart (for me at least) in the previous three series. I just don't care about anything that happens in Super but that's also because the people at the helm seem like incompetent morons.

Remember when Piccolo died in the Resurrection F movie? He didn't die? Let's randomly kill him for literally no reason that will factor into nothing and revive him offscreen. People wanted Gotenks in F? Here he is! *defuses instantly* That's what you wanted, right? Hey, Ginyu's back! I wonder where this will go... Oh, he's dead.

There's so much wasted potential that I think Super squandered it more than GT. Remember Goku and/or Hit saying they won't be playthings for the gods? Went nowhere. Remember when Frieza wanted to overthrow the gods? Went nowhere. Potentially evil Angels? Went nowhere. Remember when Gohan said he was training towards a new form? Went nowhere. The Zenos aren't dangerously overpowered children. They were actually benevolent gods testing us all along. What's that? The six universes he erased because he felt like it? Uh... here's Goku teaming up with Frieza OMG!!!

GT at least retired the Earth Dragon Balls and taught the cast not to rely on cheat codes. Super on the other hand has introduced too many cheat codes for its own good that nothing will have consequences. Not to mention it takes place before Uub so we know no one permanently dies. We now have Super Dragon Balls, Whis' time reversal, Whis can apparently bring people back to life for no reason, and Zeno can erase threats if Goku asks. That's in addition to the Earth and Namek Balls we already have.

As for fights, Goku just needs to get beat up to activate Ultra Instinct so in the new movie, it's potentially an hour of filler until that happens but if the enemy is to be a threat, it has to top Ultra Instinct. Know what that means? More transformations! How can you keep this cash cow going without continuously raising an unraisable ceiling?

A big problem with Super is that it exists to make money, not because they had a great story idea that happened to make money. Why are they taking a hiatus for a movie? Because selling tickets generates more money than a tv show? You can bet the show will be back at some point. People are eating this garbage up. They'd be fools not to continue it with no creative effort and relying on references and callbacks.

I'll close with Super having no ideas with bad execution. It beats out GT in spectacle for sure but you should want more than spectacle especially considering what Dragon Ball has given us before. GT knew when to end and gave us a wonderful final episode that felt like the end. How did Super end? On a bloated tournament that overall meant nothing with no closure because it'll keep going. But Goku and Vegeta in Saiyan Saga poses ZOMG! So clever!

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12 hours ago, Mysterious Youth said:

As a follow-up, what does Resurrection F have to do with Battle of Gods? Nothing. What does the Universe 6 tournament do besides introduce worthless characters and Zeno? Nothing. What do Future Trunks and Zamasu have to do with anything that followed? Nothing. Neither are mentioned again. But we now have two Zenos for no reason. What was the point of the tournament other than new toys and cards transformations? Nothing. Frieza's back. Are we going to kill him again?

I will say that I straight up agree that none of the arcs actually went anywhere (as I did in my original post), but I do kind of feel it necessary to point out that the Universe 6-7 tournament led directly into the Future Trunks and Universe Survival Arcs. Like, Zamasu found out about Goku because of the tournament, and the final tournament was a direct result of Zeno seeing the arse end of the first. So that first real arc did lead into the rest of Super, it was just that the arcs were of no consequence.

And what's frustrating is that they were really on to something with the Future Trunks arc. That was a thing you could play around with freely without impacting on the Uub portion of the story, and god knows, Shin Budokai 2 managed to do some amazing shit with reviving Future Gohan and blah. It was 100% fan-fiction, BUT SUPER WAS BASICALLY FAN-FICTION ANYWAY.

Honestly, I think MUI is the tipping point for me. Goku forgetting the senzu beans while on the shitter bothered me a lot, don't get me wrong, but being real, it is no worse than what GT did with Goku. And honestly, I always felt like both 4 and Blue were needless transformations. But once we hit MUI, I just had a feeling in my gut that we had hit the point of no return. Now we are in a situation where people NEED to get endlessly and ridiculously stronger to be relevant and create dramatic tension.

On a personal note, I also didn't want GT. I liked the Shadow Dragon Saga because it handicapped the Dragon Balls, and the Tuffle Revenge concept was fine, but all I wanted out of a Dragon Ball Z follow-on was a fresh start. Same universe, but ACTUALLY following Uub as the lead character, with a new supporting cast that are maybe tangentially related to the original crew. Have Uub meet the original lot as he traveled the world, and actually learn from people like Tien and Krillin.

But hey, fuck it, more Goku. Sure.

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12 hours ago, Denithan said:

I will say that I straight up agree that none of the arcs actually went anywhere (as I did in my original post), but I do kind of feel it necessary to point out that the Universe 6-7 tournament led directly into the Future Trunks and Universe Survival Arcs. Like, Zamasu found out about Goku because of the tournament, and the final tournament was a direct result of Zeno seeing the arse end of the first. So that first real arc did lead into the rest of Super, it was just that the arcs were of no consequence.

Our Zamasu found out about Goku because Beerus and Whis brought him to that universe for no reason but to set the nonsensical plot in motion. Future Zamasu was "recruited" by Goku Black and had no knowledge of Goku because he died. Goku Black somehow is a result of our Zamasu fighting Goku. Our Zamasu did see the Godtube clip of the Universe 6 tournament but his hatred for Goku was already there. I did say that one of the few things to come out of the Universe 6 tournament was introducing Zeno but yes, the Tournament of Power was born from the Universe 6 tournament.
 

12 hours ago, Denithan said:

On a personal note, I also didn't want GT. I liked the Shadow Dragon Saga because it handicapped the Dragon Balls, and the Tuffle Revenge concept was fine, but all I wanted out of a Dragon Ball Z follow-on was a fresh start. Same universe, but ACTUALLY following Uub as the lead character, with a new supporting cast that are maybe tangentially related to the original crew. Have Uub meet the original lot as he traveled the world, and actually learn from people like Tien and Krillin.

But hey, fuck it, more Goku. Sure.

We have to keep the characters at the time when they were most marketable. I applaud GT for aging the characters. It's too much risk and effort to do a next generation series because Goku Goku Goku. You have no idea how many people are opposed to this because this is Goku's story and Goku is the face of Dragon Ball. Is it any wonder why people drool at references and callbacks with no substance and no consequences? I don't trust them to make a Uub-focused or even a Goten/Trunks/Pan/Uub story because they aren't in the business of passion projects or good ideas. They won't even physically age up Goten, Trunks, and Marron.

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BoG and Frieza arcs were a disgrace to the best DBZ film and even worse than one of the worst films in the franchise respectively.

Universe 6 Arc was a boring tournament with none of the charm or character of Dragon Ball's tournament arcs nor the gravity of the Cell Games. It felt so cold.

Future Trunks/Zamasu was good. Fuck the haters, it had gravity, it was so dire that literal Deus Ex Machina had to happen, but given this series, that makes it even more serious.

Tournament of Power has a few good scenes, but was ultimately boring and wasted a lot of potential.

Once Super finished, I was thinking about how much I didn't enjoy the vast majority of the 130 odd episodes. Honestly? Outside of Zamasu, Super's best parts were slice of life type stuff. The baseball episode, Goo Vegeta Clone, 17 on the island, seeing what lives Vegeta and Goku lead in down time. That type of stuff. The main plot was craptacular.

I also echo the GT was better sentiment. As soon as GT gets to Earth, it does some fairly interesting plots, even if, year, the execution isn't the best. The ideas are better than anything in Super. I was leaning into this around the middle of ToP, but yeah, it's true.

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To be honest, what I find the most frustrating about Super is the fact that there are good concepts and saving graces littered throughout the 130 odd episodes.  Even things like the Universe 6 tournament and the ToP could've been really engaging plot-lines if handled correctly.

Hilariously, I actually think the best parts of Dragon Ball, Z, GT and Super are all the more slice of life-type stuff. I really enjoyed the Great Saiyaman Arc/High School Arc, and I enjoyed getting to know Gohan as a character and person throughout Z (I'd list other people, but honestly, we mostly just got to know Gohan, Trunks and Goten. And I hate the last one).

One thing I will always have to give Super over GT is that Super handled the extended cast a lot better. Both of their Gokus emphasized all the things I hated about Goku in Z, only worsened because he's older and more experienced. But Super did a far better job with Gohan, 17, Krillin, and so on. Minus Tien. They fucked Tien hard.

On the other side, GT had a real issue with literally making everyone but Goku irrelevant in any given story arc. Shit, there were times where we saw individuals who Goku could handle with ease one-shot really prominent members of the extended cast. The only exception to this is Vegeta, who was honestly just a fusion material when he was finally made relevant, and was a punching bag up until that point.

Both of them were bad, and what's frustrating is that they were both really close to being good. At the moment, I think it just depends on if you want plot concepts (because the actual GT plot was arse), or if you want character moments (because EVERYTHING else in Super is arse). Although thinking about it, another way to put it could be, do you want Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta (who I felt was REALLY over the top in design), or Vegito Blue?

Exception of the Future Trunks Arc, though I personally find that one the most frustrating for how close it was to being objectively good (just don't do Super Saiyan Rage, DON'T MAKE TRUNKS DO MAFUUBA, AND ANIME!INFINITE ZAMASU WAS JUST STUPID |:).

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10 hours ago, Artificial Human said:

Future Trunks/Zamasu was good. Fuck the haters, it had gravity, it was so dire that literal Deus Ex Machina had to happen, but given this series, that makes it even more serious.

The Zamasu arc was good right until the ending where it collapsed under its own premise.

 

It needs to be said though that the DBS Manga is actually really good and does almost everything better than the anime.

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8 minutes ago, sh0ryu_repp4 said:

It needs to be said though that the DBS Manga is actually really good and does almost everything better than the anime.

Excluding the ToP recruitment/actual tournament so far. Goku and Frieza just kind of showed up beaten and bruised, and Piccolo gave us this big thing about Gohan being needed, and then we didn't follow it up.

But it comes out monthly, so a lot of things need to get cut out.

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Also, only tangentially related, but can we acknowledge the fact that Xenoverse isn't a fighter for a second?

Like, it's a good game (for what it is), and I love it to bits, but it's not a fighter at it's core. It's an Action RPG. And I can't help but feel like the first Xenoverse understood that a lot better. And you could even argue that it CAN be a competitive Action-RPG, but we need to label games what they are, gdi |:

(I know this came out of nowhere, was listening to a Dragon Ball YouTuber while I did some work and they were saying that it was a fighter. Which, no.)

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7 hours ago, Denithan said:

Also, only tangentially related, but can we acknowledge the fact that Xenoverse isn't a fighter for a second?

Like, it's a good game (for what it is), and I love it to bits, but it's not a fighter at it's core. It's an Action RPG. And I can't help but feel like the first Xenoverse understood that a lot better. And you could even argue that it CAN be a competitive Action-RPG, but we need to label games what they are, gdi |:

(I know this came out of nowhere, was listening to a Dragon Ball YouTuber while I did some work and they were saying that it was a fighter. Which, no.)

I use the term Brawler for Xenoverse. 

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My only problem with Xenoverse is the community of people who don't understand the concept of competitive fighters. I understand that DBZ game fans are use to giant rosters of copy and paste (I saw someone once comment that every character in Xenoverse had a unique style of play and moveset but I think they were 10), but a competitive fighter can't be that. Every character has to be unique and built from the ground up and Arc System doesn't know any other way but to meticulously craft each character. Plus the FG community has only been waiting like 20 years for this. 

Also, I'll say it to their face. If a persons gripe is auto combos they most likely suck and haven't broken away from them... and if they're losing to them... that's a conversation for another day that ends with them sucking lol.  

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Back on topic though, Super falls into the same level as GT for me. Half good, half horrible. It just happen to accomplish this through different methods. 

Now for the future of the franchise. If Toriyama can bring back the adventurous magic of Dragon Ball through a Kid Trunks, Goten, Pan, and Uub series, I would 100% forgive every transgression towards fans of every anime ever. 

Don't get me wrong. I appreciate what Goku did for anime in the early years when it was just starting to take hold in the west and DBZ is one of the biggest contributors to that. However, I think it's clear considering which anime are actually blowing up now, that while action is important all anyone cares about (outside DBZ fans) is character development. My Hero Academia is fun and filled with quirks (see what I did there) but its the development of my favorite characters that keeps me watching. Seeing more and more of their personality break through as they figure out what being a hero means to them individually.  

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7 hours ago, Majin Goo said:

Don't get me wrong. I appreciate what Goku did for anime in the early years when it was just starting to take hold in the west and DBZ is one of the biggest contributors to that. However, I think it's clear considering which anime are actually blowing up now, that while action is important all anyone cares about (outside DBZ fans) is character development. My Hero Academia is fun and filled with quirks (see what I did there) but its the development of my favorite characters that keeps me watching. Seeing more and more of their personality break through as they figure out what being a hero means to them individually.  

I actually think My Hero Academia is a really good example there, as it does show how you can use an overpowered former hero in a manner that I actually think DBZ fans would be down for and is kind of proof that an Uub-central series would work so long as you didn't dismiss/ignore the former cast.

tbh, I don't think DBZ fans are as stuck on Goku as everyone thinks, regardless of where they're from. Goku literally spends the majority of Dragon Ball Z dead or off-screen, while Gohan is featured or mentioned in well over 3 quarters and serves as the dominant protagonist for all of the arcs.
And this is almost definitely done deliberately, because Goku is a terrible character from a plot momentum angle. He has no driving force, or reasoning for his actions, and he's very passive/reactionary as a personality. This was a big time issue with Super as they tried to make Goku the exclusive lead (you could argue that Vegeta served as deuteragonist, but I don't think we had a SINGLE plot line in Super that'd back it up with Vegeta as leading man).

Even in the original Dragon Ball, plots tended to happen AROUND Goku, and he came along for the ride because he felt like it. Bulma was the driving force/one calling the shots for the first parts of Dragon Ball, as Goku had no idea what the dragon balls did, had no particular gripe with Pilaf, and was mostly there to get tricked into being the muscle. Z was also good at this, where Raditz propels the first arcs plot (being the one who brings Nappa and Vegeta to Earth, attacks Goku and gives Piccolo the idea to train Gohan), followed by Krillin and Gohan becoming the driving force after that (Namek). Meanwhile: Goku trains.

And we were okay with that.

Shit man, GT even had a better idea of "Goku is not the reason the plot happens, ever."
 

9 hours ago, Majin Goo said:

 (I saw someone once comment that every character in Xenoverse had a unique style of play and moveset but I think they were 10)

Ahhh shit, I'm going to be that guy and somewhat defend this.

By no means do I think it's up to the standard of FighterZ, or really any fighter game. As I said before, Xenoverse is just an action RPG in my eyes with a DBZ-esque combat system. It's not even one that really stands out if you hit up the genre a lot.
But I do need to say, at least insofar as stamina break comboes, infinites, heavy stun comboes, etc., the Xenoverse characters do kind of have unique strings with timings that are pretty important to learn.

Like, Goku Black probably has the easiest of the above 3 in the game since you can just stamina break after his knee to the opponent's gut, or dash-break and infinite there. And honestly, you cannot take those same inputs and put them on any other character in the game. So in the sense that you need to learn their combos and adapt to a pre-set/Super Soul, sure, they SOMEWHAT offer unique styles of play. But it's sure as shit not every character, and I get real pissed at the people who cite Xenoverse's roster as reason to dislike FIghterZ since the developers 100% blew up that roster (with 3 spots taken by basically the same Cell with different colors, GAME DESIGN.)

CACs don't though. CACs are the most boring thing about Xenoverse, and I actually think the game could have been a lot better without them. Provided they spent a bit more time balancing characters.

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23 hours ago, Denithan said:


tbh, I don't think DBZ fans are as stuck on Goku as everyone thinks, regardless of where they're from. Goku literally spends the majority of Dragon Ball Z dead or off-screen, while Gohan is featured or mentioned in well over 3 quarters and serves as the dominant protagonist for all of the arcs.
And this is almost definitely done deliberately, because Goku is a terrible character from a plot momentum angle. He has no driving force, or reasoning for his actions, and he's very passive/reactionary as a personality. This was a big time issue with Super as they tried to make Goku the exclusive lead (you could argue that Vegeta served as deuteragonist, but I don't think we had a SINGLE plot line in Super that'd back it up with Vegeta as leading man).

Even in the original Dragon Ball, plots tended to happen AROUND Goku, and he came along for the ride because he felt like it.

Fans obviously vary but I've seen plenty of people who just "nope" at the idea of a next generation show. And that's why Toei can keep churning out poor and similar products like Super with no regard for quality outside of individuals who want to make certain fight scenes look good.

I wouldn't mind making Goku a reason for the plot if it was good. There was a lot of story potential in the Tournament of Power that just goes nowhere, some of which involve Goku. It's the writers forcing Goku in when he doesn't need to be there that bothers me. One of the big offenses was him butting into Hit's fight with Dyspo. I've seen many defend Dyspo as a top tier fighter (so they can feel better about Gohan having no good fights) and since Hit didn't take him out, Hit ended up doing nothing. Goku really had no reason to be in that episode. Whenever he's on screen he's taking away from other characters. A lot of his action is irrelevant and could be skipped entirely in favor of other characters. Even if we focus on others and keep Goku's important fights some of which he chooses not to win instantly or Jiren chooses not to defeat Goku instantly, that's still plenty. Universe 7 already had like 90% of the eliminations with Goku having the most. Why is that good writing?

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I have no problem with a "next generation" show. Hell, one of my favorite series ever is Batman Beyond. Jojo's entire gimmick is that it is a next generation show.

Which brings me to a thought I have had since the beginning of Super. Dragon Ball NEEDS to Jojo itself. What do I mean by that? We need a time skip, we need a new lead character, (not necessarily 100% new, have it be Gohan or present timeline adult Trunks, etc.), but it needs to reinvent itself.

This is all from a creative standpoint, however. Financially Dragon Ball is doing fine, and therefore the company has no reason to change it. But creatively it has been stagnant for a long time. With so many other Shonen series (Hero Aca being the BIG one) essentially doing everything right that DBS (and Shonen in general) is doing wrong, I can only hope it is just a matter of time before the fan base gets tired of it. I am not holding my breath for that though...

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