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Antispor

Majin Vegeta and Escalation revealed

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He's neat. I like the setup. Bit frustrating that he stops skips and combat ending, but tbh, that's so abundant in the meta that it's probably a positive. It also kind of means that Oppressive isn't his Level 2's friend.

One thing I really like is that THIS is a personality that is built for Saiyan Dynamic, since he's definitely worth level 2 camping and he has in-built protection against anti-levelling. This means that he's dropped the main weakness you're working around with Dynamic, you have innate disruption built in, and your opponent can't make you budge. And while I don't think it's nearly as good as the Dynamic Cell build at it, it can even employ the delevelling strategy to hop between the level 1 and 2 (with the level 2s attack replacing the card lost in hand).

His level 3 is where things get weird for me. He's a bit less interesting than his first two levels, but that's got a lot of oomph to it. A free card to hand, hitting the board twice, and then drop banishing when you gain anger (not to dismiss the extra damage he's giving).

His level 4 is pretty boring, but efficient. Unfortunately, I kind of feel like it means that MPPV isn't a highly viable strategy for Villaingeta as a result (although, who knows, maybe there's something waiting with his classic stack? Smeh.) 11 cards of unpreventable damage is pretty interesting, 1/6th of the deck gone. I'd find it more interesting if the HIT was actually just a cost for using the attack, so that you're punished to swinging into a block, but hey.

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I like this stack a lot as well. I think he’ll open new avenues of play rather than being Broly 2. The level 2 and 3 will definitely be his sweet spot and 4 is his end of game swing. I think he’ll be successful in all of the stage beats-capable masteries printed so far.

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On 6/10/2018 at 1:23 PM, Jaith1 said:

I can’t wait, I am gonna play him in my Retribution deck /s

You joke, but he actually probably would be pretty great in retribution.

That said, dynamic and ruthless seem the obvious contenders for best deck. I want to put him in resourceful, but I wish his named card didn't shut down your set up attacks too (especially because there's lots of ways to tutor it since it's styled). 

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5 hours ago, v3rse said:

You joke, but he actually probably would be pretty great in retribution.

I think I am whining about how Ret will probably be the best deck for him. For beats/mppv I don’t think there is really a contest unfortunately.

I will try him in Red as well. Red Restriction + Prideful Challenge should really mess with some decks. I think Ruthless and Ascension have a place for him. If I do go the Ruthless route I will be running Unleashed though.

I am a bit pessimistic on Dynamic in general. I don’t think it’s good, but I would def go Unleashed with Dynamic as well.

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I’ve been toying with Mischievous. Black Face Off, Final Flash, and Prideful Challenge to lock your opponent out of actions. You’ve got some decent anger physical attacks in Black too and really good block options.

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It's also probably worth mentioning his viability in a Blue Tag Team deck, with access to Turles, King Vegeta, Raditz, Nappa (for the mirror match), etc.

I don't know if it's his most potent home, but it's definitely got some insane viability when versing other Majin Vegetas.

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1 hour ago, Denithan said:

It's also probably worth mentioning his viability in a Blue Tag Team deck, with access to Turles, King Vegeta, Raditz, Nappa (for the mirror match), etc.

I don't know if it's his most potent home, but it's definitely got some insane viability when versing other Majin Vegetas.

I’ve thought about Blue Protective with Overpowering Drill myself. There may be something to that. However I think against other Majin Vegeta’s, he’s going to lose the mirror because he can’t reliably run Prideful Challenge.

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9 hours ago, Antispor said:

I’ve thought about Blue Protective with Overpowering Drill myself. There may be something to that. However I think against other Majin Vegeta’s, he’s going to lose the mirror because he can’t reliably run Prideful Challenge.

Perhaps, but he would have reliable blocking and anger hate. I'm actually kind of liking the idea of blue protective. MPPV is (in theory) one of his harder match ups and it would help immensely with that. Should still be able to get to 2 reliably as well (which lv 1 would probably depend on the number of cards with anger in them that you're running).

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On 6/13/2018 at 8:08 PM, v3rse said:

Perhaps, but he would have reliable blocking and anger hate. I'm actually kind of liking the idea of blue protective. MPPV is (in theory) one of his harder match ups and it would help immensely with that. Should still be able to get to 2 reliably as well (which lv 1 would probably depend on the number of cards with anger in them that you're running).

My only concern would be that your main attacks are going to be Life Card damage. That doesn’t seem to synergize with MV much. But I think it may be worth testing out.

 

Majin Buu is up on Deadzone guys.

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22 minutes ago, Antispor said:

Majin Buu is up on Deadzone guys.

 

And he is weird. And that is honestly fantastic. |:
I don't know how good he is though tbh. He's kind of a utility-counter stack, but that kind of creates what strikes me as the biggest weakness of the stack; It just pales in direct-beatdown match-ups.

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11 hours ago, Denithan said:

 

And he is weird. And that is honestly fantastic. |:
I don't know how good he is though tbh. He's kind of a utility-counter stack, but that kind of creates what strikes me as the biggest weakness of the stack; It just pales in direct-beatdown match-ups.

I want to like him but his named package is flawed. There are a few direct counter cards for the gimmick. That generally leads to a very losing matchup. I think levels 1,2, and 3 all have the makings of great MP levels and after a few changes for the release Buu could be very good. Level 4 is okay but the HIT effect is extremely underpowered compared to other 4s in the already in the game. Overall I’m excited for the rejuvenation effects. I like the level 3 constant working even during your rejuvenation step and the he’s got Cooler’s level 3 constant on his level 2.

what styles do you think he will succeed in, in his current version?

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21 minutes ago, Antispor said:

what styles do you think he will succeed in, in his current version?

Honestly, it's kind of sad that he's unable to be played in Namekian. The rejuvenation synergy would really work wonders there. As things are though, I'd say he works best in Orange. He's got some alright anger gain, and Retribution should help you jump up a couple of levels rather quickly to rest comfortably on his level 3 (and just have his level 4 there for when it's needed). Add in a bit of Orange's innate rejuvenation and a couple of drills to help bulk out his overall kit, and you should have a decently defensible MP.

The issue still sits with his offensive kit; He just doesn't really have any. His attacks just don't do enough right now. One good thing about him that I feel needs acknowledging though is that he's got amazing power levels. He is going to be a BEAST to try and AT stage beat down into submission. Only probably relevant in a handful of match-ups in the current meta game, but it might really help out with other Escalation MPs. Time will tell.

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23 hours ago, Antispor said:

 Level 4 is okay but the HIT effect is extremely underpowered compared to other 4s in the already in the game.

You are absolutely crazy if you think his lv4 is just “okay”.

The first attack against him does no damage...

He has board control on command.

He has an EIGHT stage physical...

and you think his HIT effect is underwhelming even though it’s a reliable Rejuv 3 but potentially a Rejuv 9...

This level 4 is more than okay to me, and if you are not convinced it wouldn’t be difficult to demonstrate... IT HAS EVERYTHING except maybe a crit effect. Let’s add crit effect + Rejuv 3 because I don’t think he is strong enough...

I think orange will be best just for devouring drill assist Unleashed in turboing to lv4. 

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8 hours ago, Jaith1 said:

You are absolutely crazy if you think his lv4 is just “okay”.

The first attack against him does no damage...

He has board control on command.

He has an EIGHT stage physical...

and you think his HIT effect is underwhelming even though it’s a reliable Rejuv 3 but potentially a Rejuv 9...

This level 4 is more than okay to me, and if you are not convinced it wouldn’t be difficult to demonstrate... IT HAS EVERYTHING except maybe a crit effect. Let’s add crit effect + Rejuv 3 because I don’t think he is strong enough...

I think orange will be best just for devouring drill assist Unleashed in turboing to lv4. 

His level 4 is by far the weakest level on paper and in testing. Each of his powers are so easily played around on level 4. The prevention effect can easily be blown through by multiple attacks in the game. If it were “deals no damage” it would be a significant boon. AK, Sin Choke, and a ton of other no prevention options make that power significantly worse than the consistent recovery on his earlier levels.

Otherwise all of his other effects are HIT effects. Inconsistent and slow.  Cooler whips out a zero cost rejuvenate 7, Drawku can tutor Saiyan Tantrum for a Rejuv 3 and an auto crit, and Krillin is automatically tutoring multiple setups with a ton of other effects attached. All of these are zero cost level 4s. To get a significantly game-changing move on level 4 you’re going to need 2-3 turns of setup to possibly rejuvenate more than 3. Board control is popular right now because of Orange and Krillin’s popularity. All your opponent has to do is either block the first instant so you don’t have a setup for the attack’s hit effect,block the attack on level 4 so he can’t rejuvenate, or just banish your setups as they enter play because you have an action to interact with it. It’s pretty weak even compared to his 3. Level 3 automatically blanks one of your opponent’s board and adds consistent auto recovery. I’d take that over a few okay hit effects any day.

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Sure his level 4 is useless if your opponent has 2 physical blocks and a sinister choke. <_< Everyone understands that...

if you don’t land your 8 stages one combat but land a physical the later you still have board control and the potential to land the 8s and rejuv next combat. 

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21 minutes ago, Jaith1 said:

Sure his level 4 is useless if your opponent has 2 physical blocks and a sinister choke. <_< Everyone understands that...

if you don’t land your 8 stages one combat but land a physical the later you still have board control and the potential to land the 8s and rejuv next combat. 

Have you tested this MP? You do not need to have a beastly hand to play around his powers. Each of them have an easily exploitable weakness. Something the best level 4s in the game do not have. If you let an attack hit, hold the block for his power or banish it in the next action with a removal option. Rejuvenate 3 isn’t even significant enough to swing games and in the games current state nobody is going to let your setups sit on the board for more than a turn or two. It’s a power that requires too much setup for something Ox King does just for entering the field. His level 2 can probably recover 5-7 cards in a combat much easier with zero setup. The level is pretty bad for a level 4.

edit: I also want to point out that if you enter against Buu Level 4 and throw an attack like Blue Neck Beam, Defensive Burst, or any other powerful HIT effect your opponent is going to be forced to stop the attack anyway.

Edited by Antispor

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11 minutes ago, Antispor said:

Have you tested this MP? You do not need to have a beastly hand to play around his powers. Each of them have an easily exploitable weakness. Something the best level 4s in the game do not have.

This is a bit of a side note, but in terms of design philosophy, I actually don't mind them deliberately making new MP Level 4s that are weaker or lateral to old ones. Not every MP needs to be a complete winner, and I think there's a lot to be done/said about his previous levels.

That said, just changing the attack from Physical to Energy might make it a bit more likely to land. I just straight up dislike the HIT though, personally. Rather than banishing what's in play, it would be nice to see it rejuv for the one's that are already banished. There is just a bit too much set-up needed as things currently sit.

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2 hours ago, Denithan said:

This is a bit of a side note, but in terms of design philosophy, I actually don't mind them deliberately making new MP Level 4s that are weaker or lateral to old ones. Not every MP needs to be a complete winner, and I think there's a lot to be done/said about his previous levels.

That said, just changing the attack from Physical to Energy might make it a bit more likely to land. I just straight up dislike the HIT though, personally. Rather than banishing what's in play, it would be nice to see it rejuv for the one's that are already banished. There is just a bit too much set-up needed as things currently sit.

I agree that the designers don’t have to make each MP’s level 4 more powerful than the last. I think they’ve done a good job at keeping the MP powerlevels in the same place while making the styles faster. Drawku is still sort-of the bar when it comes to how powerful a character can be. My issue with this is that I think Buu is going to struggle when not camping his 2 and 3. Hitting 4 is when you’re going to start losing a close game because your opponent can easily answer it.

I hope that they buff level 4 in some way. I would like to see the first attack “Deals no Damage.” Like Pikkon level 2 here. I think that change would power that effect up quite a bit. I like what you said about the cards in your banished zone triggering the rejuvenation. Since it’s a HIT effect you won’t automatically rejuvenate 9 but it’s a looming factor your opponent will have to play around. That may be even too strong though haha.

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6 hours ago, Antispor said:

I like what you said about the cards in your banished zone triggering the rejuvenation. Since it’s a HIT effect you won’t automatically rejuvenate 9 but it’s a looming factor your opponent will have to play around. That may be even too strong though haha.

I'd honestly say that if we made this change, we'd need to bring down the sheer number of cards rejuvenated. I'd say maybe 2 cards per banished Named Card/specific named cards. This would put it in line with the Supreme Kai's Level 4, and it draws nice parallels between the two of them.

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Yeah, I was excited to play buu, but I have to echo that he's pretty underwhelming. My biggest concerns: 

- AT: his upper levels are great sure, but he drops off REALLY fast. To the point where his brackets overall are pretty mediocre. Especially for an mp that seems to want to do physical stage beats. It only takes one weak stage attack to drop him to C or lower. Reminds me of SSG goku, but on every level. His relatively low PUR doesn't help this either. 

- Overly balanced: he takes a lot of good effects that we've seen on other MPs and mixes them together. This makes him good at a lot of things, but not great at anything since these effects have no synergy with one another. Jack of all trades master of none. This leaves him feeling very unfocused, and I think is leaving a lot of us scratching our heads thinking about what direction to take him. Maybe some new cards in the set will reveal some synergy where it does not currently exist, but it's a small set so even if that happens it will likely be narrow/niche.

- No win condition: this has been said by others, but cannot be overstated. He does a lot to rejuvenate and hamper his opponents win con with board control, but this just serves to draw out the battle. Basically he's just trying to outlast the opponent rather than trying to win. This is not a great strategy with how fast the game has become. Especially against mppv decks since he has no built in anti anger support. Or even against dbv decks if you can't crit sufficiently. Best case scenario you're going to end up going to time a lot. He seems to want to be a stage beats mp, but other than having a physical attack on every mp level he does nothing to support this. That's not enough these days. 

 

Long story short he doesn't do anything that broly or cooler don't do better. Joey did hint that there have already been changes to the final version, so hopefully they're good.

 

Some possible ideas to improve him may include:

- beefing up the power of his effects. If his effects aren't going to synergize then they need to be a little stronger to be serviceable. For example the lv 1 could be changed to 4 stages instead of 3 and 2 rejuv instead of 1. This will be difficult to balance though as this could easily snowball into buu being great at everything. 

- add some consistency across levels: this would give him a direction to build him and a win condition to pursue. For example you could just add "your attacks do +1 stage of damage" to all of his levels and that would go a really long way. Suddenly he's a consistent stage beats mp. 

- make his named cards less gimmicky/more consistent: this could be solved any number of ways with small modifications to mp or card powers. Currently these effects are unreliable unless you're on lv 3 and have many counters and ways to play around them. When I first saw the named cards I was fine with them being gimmicky for the sake of flavor because I assumed his mp would make up for it with pure power. This is not the case so far.

 

Fingers crossed for the final version. 

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So I actually have a had a chance to play as and against Buu. The first match was against Retribution Buu as Resolute Cooler. This was actually pretty close until the last couple turns. There were 3-4 combats where we were both at 25-35 cards and just wailing on eachother. Eventually Cooler broke through with a Sin Choke, after I had made my way through his Orange Jukes. Cooler ultimately won with 25 cards still in the deck.

What I learned about Buu is that his level 3 isn’t just his best level, it’s an amazing level even compared to every other MP in the game. Specifically in Orange, this MP can Rejuvenate 2 when entering combat and 3 more at the end of combat if Checkup Drill can stick around. Orange Juke can tutor TWO drills on this level. He did this to me multiple times. I’d enter, destroy his drills with Nova, and then attack. He’d block,  play two drills, search if it was checkup, and the combat continued as if I had done nothing to his board. Really awesome stuff. He wasn’t running Orange Counter Ball but I think something can be said about it Rejuvenating FIVE CARDS on HIT.

His level 1 and 2 are serviceable but not as abusive as that level 3 constant. Level 2 is a safe place to camp and recover a ton of cards. He spent the early combats here and coasted till I was even in deck count with him. The HIT: Gain 2 anger or Rejuvenate 2. Was really useful because he’d throw it and if it hit in Ret you’re likely going to level or you rejuvenate 2 key cards. That’s a lot to consider when he’s still got 2-3 cards in his and only one block in yours. He did get to level 4 for one combat but I Sin Choked through the prevention for game. 

I also played as Ret Buu against Ascension Piccolo(W), Rampaging Drawku(We didn’t finish), and Ret Hero 18(W)

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