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Jarrett

Game Launched! Initial thoughts...

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Anyone else playing it? I've played for a bit too long (was only supposed to be an hour - got stuck playing four hours; whoops). I played through the demo games, played against the bots a few times, constructed a deck, played one casual game (and won), and now I'm playing the play-til-you-lose Call to Arms event (so far I'm 4-0; I'd keep playing but work tomorrow).

Personally, I found the game a ton of fun, and VERY skill intensive. It reminds me of the Wizards of the Cost version of Star Wars TCG (which was a game I loved playing but never played competitively...or in a tournament).

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2 hours ago, Majin Goo said:

I think the real appeal here @Jarrett is the ability to host community tournaments through the game. That's something I think is going to be great as a standard. 

Yeah, I really like this idea. We could do a Top Tier Tournament Circuit for cash prizes. 

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7 hours ago, Card Slinger J said:

Thought I'd share this article with you guys in relation to Valve's new digital card game 'Artifact' -

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/xwjv8w/valves-new-game-artifact-is-a-perfect-machine-for-making-money

Good article, though I laughed a little when the author stated that the $300 dollars for the set in Artifact was comparable to getting a full set in Hearthstone or Magic. 

The key issue people are having is that they continue to compare this to Hearthstone or Arena. It is only similar in that its a PC game. The entire model is designed to emulate a traditional TCG and that's where Artifact shines. It gives you that experience and makes collecting and competitive play far more accessible than it normally is in digital card games. You can literally just build the deck you want and spend only about $40 to $75 dollars. Even if someone just grinds on Hearthstone or Arena, once you consider the time it takes to get competitive for constructed you're still looking at hundreds in cost once you translate the time to money. 

Now I agree with the gambling concept on loot creates and packs. I've seen people that can't resist the, "just one more pack", and it can do financial damage if an intervention doesn't happen. The key difference with a TCG model though is that your pack always had value because of the secondary market where as loot crates and gambling have a zero value option as a result. 

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10 hours ago, Jarrett said:

Yeah, I really like this idea. We could do a Top Tier Tournament Circuit for cash prizes. 

This is the very idea I had when I mentioned you. Has me a bit excited. 

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9 hours ago, Majin Goo said:

Now I agree with the gambling concept on loot creates and packs. I've seen people that can't resist the, "just one more pack", and it can do financial damage if an intervention doesn't happen. The key difference with a TCG model though is that your pack always had value because of the secondary market where as loot crates and gambling have a zero value option as a result. 

What If that zero value option is considered illegal? Gambling in the U.S. is defined in three parts:

  • Consideration
  • Chance
  • Prize

If all three attributes are present in an offering then it's considered gambling.

Consideration means payment (not necessarily money).

Do you pay anything for a booster pack of Pokémon TCG cards? If so then that is consideration. Interestingly, it doesn't matter who receives the money (in most cases) or the amount of money. If you pay one penny for a booster pack of cards that is guaranteed to contain a card worth $100 then that is still consideration. Does skill or chance affect the offering? If so is it over 50% chance or 50% skill? If the offering is over 50% affected by chance then it's a game of chance. Do you receive anything of easily quantifiable value for your participation? Then that's considered a prize.

If you answered yes to the above three questions then what you're doing is considered gambling. So why hasn't the Trading Card Game / Collectible Card Game model been stopped in federal court? Well the short answer is that they aren't harmful enough. After a review of cases it appears that the most prominent lawsuits brought against trading card publishers have been dismissed. Beyond the test to determine If something is gambling or not, all U.S. courts (and most courts worldwide as this comes from common law) have requirements that must be met for a lawsuit to be filed.

Almost all courts require a plaintiff to have standing - that is essentially a good reason to be the person bringing that particular lawsuit. So far the cases regarding this subject matter have been dismissed as the courts claimed the plaintiff's failed to show that they've been harmed in some way whether it was physical or psychological. In other words, Trading Cards have a strong chance of being recognized as gambling. However courtrooms are serious places so unless someone was seriously harmed through the purchase of trading cards, it's highly unlikely to be considered by court.

The real test will come in the next 5-10 years as our generation grew up on TCG's with the next presumably on digital versions (as much as I hate to admit it). We'll soon have more data on the behaviors of adults who grew up with these "gambling simulators" and what their behavior is like as adults. Given that most mainstream TCG's (MTG, Yu-Gi-Oh!, Pokémon) are made up of high stake gamblers from Wall Street as well as Crypto Investors, it's not looking too good for the defenders of this business practice from insider trading with prior knowledge of the release of a product before release day to preferential treatment for people who shill for these companies.

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1 hour ago, Card Slinger J said:

What If that zero value option is considered illegal? Gambling in the U.S. is defined in three parts:

  • Consideration
  • Chance
  • Prize

If all three attributes are present in an offering then it's considered gambling.

Consideration means payment (not necessarily money).

Do you pay anything for a booster pack of Pokémon TCG cards? If so then that is consideration. Interestingly, it doesn't matter who receives the money (in most cases) or the amount of money. If you pay one penny for a booster pack of cards that is guaranteed to contain a card worth $100 then that is still consideration. Does skill or chance affect the offering? If so is it over 50% chance or 50% skill? If the offering is over 50% affected by chance then it's a game of chance. Do you receive anything of easily quantifiable value for your participation? Then that's considered a prize.

If you answered yes to the above three questions then what you're doing is considered gambling. So why hasn't the Trading Card Game / Collectible Card Game model been stopped in federal court? Well the short answer is that they aren't harmful enough. After a review of cases it appears that the most prominent lawsuits brought against trading card publishers have been dismissed. Beyond the test to determine If something is gambling or not, all U.S. courts (and most courts worldwide as this comes from common law) have requirements that must be met for a lawsuit to be filed.

Almost all courts require a plaintiff to have standing - that is essentially a good reason to be the person bringing that particular lawsuit. So far the cases regarding this subject matter have been dismissed as the courts claimed the plaintiff's failed to show that they've been harmed in some way whether it was physical or psychological. In other words, Trading Cards have a strong chance of being recognized as gambling. However courtrooms are serious places so unless someone was seriously harmed through the purchase of trading cards, it's highly unlikely to be considered by court.

The real test will come in the next 5-10 years as our generation grew up on TCG's with the next presumably on digital versions (as much as I hate to admit it). We'll soon have more data on the behaviors of adults who grew up with these "gambling simulators" and what their behavior is like as adults. Given that most mainstream TCG's (MTG, Yu-Gi-Oh!, Pokémon) are made up of high stake gamblers from Wall Street as well as Crypto Investors, it's not looking too good for the defenders of this business practice from insider trading with prior knowledge of the release of a product before release day to preferential treatment for people who shill for these companies.

I got a feeling that TCGs will still be around. As you stated, there needs to be a clear example of harm. While someone's "crack a pack" addiction can get a bit in the way of things, TCG's aren't as consuming on the consumer market, even on the digital front. Although if I had to cite an example of pure negligence in "over manipulating" the game of chance on packs, it would be PanZ's set 7, and the way it handled UR's, hands down. I have a feeling in all of this, hobby gaming will likely be placed in its own category, as such minor things often are, and be regulated much more lenient.

At this point, the conversation is diverging from the topic, which is the initial thoughts on the game itself, so I'll likely not be discussing the affects of gambling in general on gamers any further in this thread. Nothing against the conversation, I just think this topic should stay focused on people's thoughts and opinions on the actual game itself and how it rates in play-ability and collect-ability to other games of this nature. 

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Somewhat of an ask, especially since there are a few videos here and there online regarding the game, but is there a chance that any of you have uploaded a few videos of the game?
I tend to find this time of year somewhat taxing financially, so I'm not really in a situation to spare the money. But I'd still be interested in seeing someone run through what they think are the strong-suits of the game, and in watching some high-tier play.

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2 hours ago, Denithan said:

Somewhat of an ask, especially since there are a few videos here and there online regarding the game, but is there a chance that any of you have uploaded a few videos of the game?
I tend to find this time of year somewhat taxing financially, so I'm not really in a situation to spare the money. But I'd still be interested in seeing someone run through what they think are the strong-suits of the game, and in watching some high-tier play.

I actually was thinking of doing content for this game. I built a competitive deck last night, including what is the most expensive card so far, and spent $35 doing it. I'm confident in it and am going to start playing online tonight. 

It should be noted, that if you don't like the game after the two tutorial games you can decline the starter decks and packs and ask for a refund. 

I think my favorite part of the game is that it makes non interactive play impossible. You have to engage in combat which means even control decks have to interact with combat. No turtling and refusing combat in this game. So while control is powerful in this game it's a lot more engaging. 

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7 hours ago, Majin Goo said:

It should be noted, that if you don't like the game after the two tutorial games you can decline the starter decks and packs and ask for a refund.

I respect that, quite a lot actually. But again, my issue is more that this time of year takes a lot out of my bank, and with how many things tend to go wrong in the few weeks leading up to Christmas, I tend to just not spend anything until we're into the new year (and I'm determined that I won't buy a game to knowingly get the refund later).

But I would sincerely be interested in any content you upload, so be sure to post links if you do go for it.

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On 12/4/2018 at 5:46 PM, Denithan said:

I respect that, quite a lot actually. But again, my issue is more that this time of year takes a lot out of my bank, and with how many things tend to go wrong in the few weeks leading up to Christmas, I tend to just not spend anything until we're into the new year (and I'm determined that I won't buy a game to knowingly get the refund later).

But I would sincerely be interested in any content you upload, so be sure to post links if you do go for it.

I think I'm going to try to make something this weekend. Hopefully, after the season, you can join us. I might run though the basics of the interview and a game using the starting deck against the bots. 

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On 12/4/2018 at 7:54 AM, Majin Goo said:

I actually was thinking of doing content for this game. I built a competitive deck last night, including what is the most expensive card so far, and spent $35 doing it. I'm confident in it and am going to start playing online tonight. 

It should be noted, that if you don't like the game after the two tutorial games you can decline the starter decks and packs and ask for a refund. 

I think my favorite part of the game is that it makes non interactive play impossible. You have to engage in combat which means even control decks have to interact with combat. No turtling and refusing combat in this game. So while control is powerful in this game it's a lot more engaging. 

If you play against BG Control, they came make it to where you can't do anything for the longest time, then play a card that gives them Initiative then pass. It's possible to be non-interactive, but its either you're going to win fast or lose fast.

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