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Everything posted by Amanax

  1. Gohan interacts with orange charge the same way as everyone else. Gohan doesn't turn the attack into a styled attack until you are performing it (With some strange timing windows that get around cards that stop your opponent from performing non-styled attacks). While in the deck, cards are still their original style (or lack there of). It's awesome to hear that the deck worked though! I was worried that it was going to be too convoluted. Sounds like the mixed damage profile does have the potential to flop, like you said, with just some bad luck. I imagine well timed blocks can really ruin your time as well. Like letting the first head charge hit and then blocking the sword chop / second charge. Did you see any issues getting your damage through against a more defensive deck? You mentioned Supreme Kai, which I would have expected to be a pretty hard match given it's ability to sculpt hands.
  2. Orange Examination Drill. You can use this with all of your hit effects to throttle your own anger? Okay okay, I got you. What about.. Adept Sword Tien? Just go ALL in on what you were already considering. Lets keep that tutor engine going! Running Aggressive Sword Drill makes it so your Draining Blast and Tri-Beams can't have damage prevented. Like you mentioned, sword chop can fetch out Targeting (It can also grab prep if you wanna throttle the opponents anger). You want to go in with non-styled combat cards, well this also gives you access to the attack cards like Devilish Sword Strike and Dashing Sword Attack. Dashing Sword Attack can fetch your lost Sword Chops if they hit the discard pile. Use defiant Challenge as you already suggested to give you more ways to fetch your named cards. Okay, this will actually take a LOT more work than I anticipated. Basic thought process, build the deck like a Yu-Gi-Oh! deck. Instead of looking at individual power cards and "staples" you include as much tutoring, draw mechanics, and "engine" pieces for your combos as possible to maximize your consistency. My biggest concern, is that your primary card is Sword Chop, which is Banish After Use. You would be running two primary "Engines" in the Sword and Tien packages. So that probably gives you roughly 21-23 cards. Then you have support for each of those engines, cards like Defiant Challenge, which gives you direct tutors for your named cards, maybe cards like Orange Hoping Drill that make your opponent mill when you play a sword card. As was already mentioned, Examination Drill to help you control your leveling, maybe Freezing Drill so your opponents' options are limited for responses to your combos. I would say Spheres and Confrontations so again, to limit your opponents options to deal with your game plan. Bicycle Kick so you can filter your drills out for ones you need right now. Orange Power Point / Orange Extension / whatever you want for direct Drill tutors (Depending on Mastery you also have Orange Memory). You have hand filtering cards like Orange Luxury, Orange Possession Drill, and Orange Affection Drill that might be useful to filter out dead combo pieces for live ones. I don't know if it'll work. Last time I built a deck like this I build a Babidi deck that only had 5 total attack cards in it lol. It was fun but fragile if interrupted. I am curious to hear how it goes though. You should keep us (Or at least me maybe?) posted on the decks progress.
  3. I wish I had the list for the Tien I helped build because clearly I am misremembering some parts of it like with the level hop blocks. We chose to do the level hop build because the idea of camping level 1 seemed nearly impossible. It's not like people don't know that your level 2 isn't great and with all of Tien's good named cards giving him anger, you will level if your opponent ignores your anger. You could try to put in cards like Stomach Dive, Forward Stance Drill, and other anger spenders to try and keep your anger in the 2-3 range (Which also would promote the use of Red Despair Drill). If you ever get set up it could mean some serious punching power... If you get set up. How do you guys feel about Red Announcement in the deck? You're not alien so it's not named, but it still gives you another way to dig for your tri-beams
  4. The cool thing about red Tien is Red has plenty of ways to level hop, and if you are level hopping in red as Tien you also get access to Red Trailing Blast. So Trailing Blast, Unleashed (Remember, you can go up or down), Tien's named cards (Prep, draining blast, Tri-Beam, targeting, and Solar flare), Red Focus, Red Tandem Blast, the level hop blocks, On the Move!s, spheres/confrontations so you can try to not get fully shut down by your opponent drawing Time. Oh, can't forget Red Leap just in case your tri-beams trigger it for the bonus damage. That's always fun. That's 43 cards assuming max counts of each. I would probably run it as Ruthless with the original level 1. New level 1 is cool and will probably get more love if, as you said, more of the new masteries have when entering effects. The consistency of tutoring your named cards with the old level 1 is just so.. Tien. Helped a buddy build one for Grand Kai, and the deck is the same as ever. It wins fast or loses fast. They are rarely boring matches though! If you are considering Tien, I would strongly consider it. It's a fun all out aggro deck to play. ~edit~ The level hopping blocks might actually be a bad idea... Forgot that you might lose your trailing blasts at the end of combat. Might still be worth it, but might be really disappointing if you manage to get all three attached and lose two of them
  5. Yeah, makes sense. The free drill tutor is pretty good in that scenario. I just wonder if the added survivability would be worth it. Just spinning ideas.
  6. I wonder if it would be worth it to switch off adept and go to combative at that point. You don't get the on hit drill fetch, or the stage damage increase but you would give the negative modifier to your opponents stages, gain the stage gain when needed, and you would have the added benefit of preventing 3 and 3 (5/5 if you decided to include conference drill) every time you landed a styled energy attack
  7. Orange 18 didn't win, he just got top 8. Oppressive Drawku won. Sorry for the confusion! His decklist is on the deadzone site but yes it's a more standard build for orange 18 and uses Adaptive mastery. Shutting down ally actions could certainly be useful. Are you trying to level at all?
  8. Orange 18 with Palm Charge is a fun deck, as is Yamcha. We've got two players in our group that are enjoying the 18 build. Michael Martin even made top 8 at Grand Kai with it. Which 3 drills?
  9. I ended up going with Mischievous Bojack. I wanted the ability to snipe cards from my opponents deck with more than just malicious intent. I also found Black Destructive Beam. Checked the ruling on it on the Wikia, and it has some pretty cool synergy with Bojack's Nefarious Plot, Malicious Intent, and Team Bojack. Not just that, but Bojack brings a bit of board control to Black which so far has felt nice. The deck feels really fun. It's going to take a lot testing to refine it though.
  10. Jank triple threat ramp biobroly sounds hilarious. I wonder if red ball would work better for it. I've been tempted to try tweaking my red buu ball and seeing if I can make it work with the new bio broly stack. Right now though, I'm thinking of trying to get a pikkon (or cooler haven't decided for sure yet) red deck working and then I want to do something with Bojack, probably something black?
  11. It's on the Dead Zone word press site under the CRD. Dead Zone Fan Z CRD version 1.6.1 Scroll to the bottom, it's listed as "Frozen List"
  12. Depends on the meta call with Protective. I think based off of what I have sen the hardest matchup it would have would be a protective Future Gohan deck. But if we're talking tournament setting, Protective Supreme Kai is probably the deck you would have to worry about the most, since that seems to be more popular than Future Gohan deck at the moment. Kenosha had no blue decks at all. We'll see what shows up today. Wall breaker is a cute concept, but at least here no one will run that card. It's too risky. Throwing it against a deck that might run unleashed and giving them a free level can mean a death sentence for the match. Even if you did get the hit off against Broly, deck has a number of ways to deal auto critical damage if they get through the block line. Deck is fast enough to out pace Mischievous Supreme Kai early before SK can get his board established. This is all after only two days of testing with the deck. It's not unbeatable by any means, but I haven't seen a match up yet that can consistently stop it from popping off. How is the new Orange testing for you testing Jaith? Enjoying the new cards? They've certainly given the style a lot of new life over here. The Adaptive Yamcha and 18 so far are by far the most fun I've been having with them. Both decks can do some silly things, and even just the addition of Orange Absorption Drill gives orange a lot of longevity against one of it's formerly difficult matchups.
  13. Some people are coming in for Grand Kai, got to play test against some of the upcoming competition. That said, I'm glad they changed Broly's new 3. His ability to make use of Rampaging is intense. Giving him a consistent setup draw like what was previewed would have been crazy. It's already not too difficult for him to go to 1-3 in one combat against anything that's not running ridiculous amounts of anger hate. Even then, with decent draws that's not going to stop him either. An early Saiyan enraged hitting the field before combat means it's almost a certainty he will hit 3 that combat with minimal effort. I am curious to see how he does in other styles though. Specifically red looks like a lot of fun with cards like Red Hurl possibly seeing some play.
  14. Yeah I can certainly agree with the sentiment towards the set overall. For a 7 month wait, it doesn't feel like it's quite what I was hoping for. If this had been a normal 3-4 month wait I would probably be more than happy with what everything got. Orange got support for a mastery that wasn't seeing much play. Red got more named card and alien support. Black got some cards to help with combos. Blue got more support to help a mastery with low representation. Saiyan got shafted again by getting, as Denithan put it, another archetype with no other support to actually really build around. Oh, and the free style cards help fill holes that the community has asked for (A generic replacement for Overpowering attack so ally decks outside of blue can exist, and something to answer Mischievous hand hate). It's support on par with what I would expect from a single set. But enough time has gone by that we should almost have had two sets in the release period. We'll see if it's enough to stir up the pot as things move on though. I will say, one blue card that I am actually surprised about is Blue Agility. I just starting testing it last night and I must say I like it. Much like orange, it's another attach target without a detach clause. This is a big deal. Yes, blue had both Smug Punch and Rebuke as good attach cards before, but they both had the same detach clause of your opponent leveling up. Made it harder to stack them for multiple level jumps from unleashed. Blue Agility adds consistency to unleashing in Resourceful. It also not only gives you a damage amp to help that same deck, but gives ALL of your physical attacks anger hate, making Smug Punch stick longer. I had a test game last night where I had smug punch and agility attached, and since most of my physicals from hand didn't reference anger, every successful attack would lower anger by 4. Even the attacks that did reference anger mostly had an immediate effect to lower my opponents anger 1, so with agility attached, success still meant a -4 anger attack instead of -2. Made it incredibly hard for the opposing deck to have any significant amount of anger. A little over kill? Maybe. But I found it to be pretty useful in the one game. I plan to test it some more tonight and see if it was a fluke or if this might be something to keep an eye on.
  15. Follow-up now that the set is officially out. Combative Gohan still suffers from not having enough ways to get his allies out and while cool, just wasn't really working out. Back on the shelf it goes. Adaptive decks though, despite the change to Palm Charge feel GREAT to play. Only seen and tested 18 and Yamcha so far but giving adaptive more ways to level certainly does feel like it was the right call. Also, Quick Toss is pretty fun to use (Feels bad having it thrown at you though). Gives Orange another anti anger tool for Earthling traited characters. Red finally getting a pseudo replacement for Tactical Drill is pretty awesome (I say for now). Pretty excited to test it out in my Ascension decks. Got to test out Ruthless Tien a bit over the past few days with the new named card and Red Focus. All I can say, is thank goodness Focus and the others changed into a copy of the attack. Tri-beams were getting out of control when it was just playing them. Anyone had a chance to play test anything so far?
  16. Some have been MPPV secondary threat adaptive builds, with Yamcha and Goten for example. Some camp decks, like Awakening Gohan. Dabura has, at least in our group, wanted to get off of his level 1, when this happens he usually experiences a set back with the drills. Speaking of the Gohan to the Rescue and setting up a board with chi chi and burning aura drill, I am STOKED to reinvigorate my attempt at Combative Gohan. Sucks to have lost Focusing Drill since the last attempt, but with Orange Energy Focus allowing me to push down to 0 stages reliably on level 2 to make use of the all the ally attacks the deck got the boost I was looking for. It's still going to be an awkward build, but man, if I can get it working in time I might just scrap my other projects and take it to Grand Kai lol
  17. I don't know that I would say we have a specific MP meta outside of our one Dabura 1-trick player. We have a lot of variety and most of the players don't step on each others toes too much. Since it's so long between decks and we only meet once a week as people trickle in, people with new decks to test get sent through a gauntlet ranging from Dabura/M.V. Stage Beats, Surpreme Kai control, Ascension MPPV decks, etc and/or whatever the person wants to test against. Then we as a group begin tweaking and improving on the ideas of the deck, so by the second to third week we have a really good idea on whether or not the deck could go to a tournament and pull off a win or not. Given our play groups success at Kai events I'd say it's been working. Orange decks just don't usually survive the gauntlet. There is always a common deck type that they lose hard against. Maybe we're just not orange players, but given that our results have matched the Kai results I'm willing to say we have a decent read on things.
  18. Adept Buu gets stuck on level 1 and gets bullied by pretty much every deck Adept Dabura is fun and can pop-off, but Red Variant is less likely to draw dead and has just as explosive turns without the risk of being set back due to a bad level / de-level Adept Drawku is something that we haven't played with a ton. Adaptive is more common for his level jumping nonsense. Deck is okay, but it's still a goku deck, it lives and dies by getting off unleashed/Kaiokens Adept Gohan is the bomb when it goes off. Most of us have moved over to Goten Adept but Gohan still pops up here and there. It's solid, but personally I don't find it quite as strong as it once was. Between Black Mischvious Decks and Blue defensive decks, it just seems to have the same issue as Saiyan where it can't push enough attacks through to quite seize the game. Usually has some exciting games though, that's for sure. Combative Trunks NEVER did well in our group with multiple people trying to recreate the success everyone talked about. What we found about it rings true with just about every combative deck. The deck does really well against control. It does not however do well against anything hyper aggressive like red/black dabura, it doesn't do well against speed MPPV like Ascension Trunks/Buu, it has no real way to mitigate allies, and the same weakness to allies doubly applies to Dragon Ball Victory decks, which it REALLY struggles against. The longer it can stall the game, the better it does - hence why it's good into Control, but really can't get going against anything else outside of some lucky games where it draws what it needs. Adaptive H18 hasn't been played. It's not going to do anything overly special. Yamcha has been played (it's the closest to the 18 deck) and can make a splash, but adept yamcha energy beats usually does better. A20 of any flavor has most of the same issues combative in general has. I think the biggest problem with Orange is the meta that it's played into. If your group plays a slower meta with lots of control and board, than Orange will do well. But against faster more aggressive strategies, Orange loses out just by the nature of needing so many dead combat cards in the deck to function. Then, if you do play a deck like Adept which is supposed to be faster, you don't have as strong of combo extenders as other top tier Aggro MPs .Uppercut into bicycle Kick into Bottle+Intimidating Drill into draw that hopefully turns into another attack is about the best you can pull off. And that's not bad, but by nature requires you to A) have stages for uppercut B ) have Bicycle Kick in deck C) have at least 2 drills you don't mind swapping out already in play. Other aggro decks can pull off similar levels of combos, but don't need the same setup, or use discard pile instead of deck so that their combo potential goes up as the game progresses instead of down. I'm not saying Orange can't win. I'm just saying it has a lot of bad match ups that are pretty popular.
  19. I am not a fan of the "Orange is red but better" sentiment that people have picked up. Yes, they both do drill things. By that sentiment is Red just Saiyan but better? It has better beats than Saiyan, has better anger than Saiyan, has wider access to MPs than Saiyan. Juke is better under certain circumstances and worse than Stop in others. Stop is blank is you don't have anger or a drill in discard / banish. Juke at least rejuvinates a drill even if you don't meet the clause but doesn't get to touch banish zone. Banish zone retrieval is HUGE. It's a fair trade. I'll grant you, beatdown is better than slide. Only up side to slide is it's for the whole combat, but sucks that if you level from the anger on it you lose the drills it was trying to protect. Really should have had the protection clause before the anger like beatdown has, then it would be a completely different story. Sweeping Blast vs Tandem Blast feels very equal. Downside to tandem blast is it was designed with masteries and play styles in mind that have already been banned / errata'd away from Red (Such as Enraged giving you a draw on the de-level, using Tandem Blast to de-level after the unleashed+trailing blast Drawku shenanigans during Set 7 for more abuse, having tactical drill so you always have fuel for your anger spenders etc). Both are extremely good. Personally, I've been playing more red than orange because I think we have a very different opinion of "viable" - our play group is still pretty competitive. Orange doesn't get wins often in our group, regardless of strategy or MP unless we're going for the D-tier decks, orange really isn't a problem. Red is PLENTY strong right now, Amplified is struggling a little but Ruthless and Ascension are both more than fine. ~Edit~ I just realized you were disappointed with Red Focus? :O How? Do you just not play MPs with good named attacks? Or just don't like the feel of it? Think about a situation like your Ruthless Dabura/Tien, you can set up HUGE combo plays. What about the game you are playing as Majin Vegeta, you are up against that pesky control player and have a final flash chilling in discard for a free combat? Buu, getting access to candy beam from discard for spot removal, Broly also for spot removal or for combo pieces, Red Frieza picking up and lobbing Super Novas from discard. Sure it gets banished, you'll get it back. It's not going to be included in Every deck, don't plan on running it in Goku any time soon, but any MP with a strong named attack is probably going to consider it. Good card is good. Shouldn't let Orange get you down because it is also getting good cards. If you want, we can all point and laugh at Saiyan and joke about how bad they are right now. Will that help?
  20. I think the thing I am looking forward to most from this new set is the revealed Orange Energy Focus, and Orange Palm Charge A LOOOOT of hate towards the two orange cards over on Retro right now, and yeah they could maybe use a little balance tweaking, I like the overall feel of both these additions. Everyone may hate orange, but the style has been struggling for a while after taking hit after hit to the one playable strategy it had. Now, all it really has left is Adept, which struggles to keep up with some of the more consistent power houses in the stage beats department since it has such a bad reset if it levels at a bad moment. Palm Charge breathes new life back into Adaptive mastery especially since it's the only orange mastery left that doesn't get completely destroyed with a mistimed level change and now that it can play unleashed means it would be able to safely play devouring drill again as well (In case you missed out, most people find that devouring drill isn't worth the risk, since a person can unleash, level their MP and take away the advantage of the devouring drill play). Even without considering what it opens up in terms of new decks with old masteries, it also just gives Orange back a solid energy beats feel, which I think they should have. Physical beats have been pretty strong as of late and between stage beats locking you out of your energies and control decks not letting your energies hit Orange hasn't really been playing energy attacks nearly as often as mill cards and other whacky strategies to try and push damage. Palm Charge directly attempts to address the issue and I like the attempt. Would personally like the damage on it dropped so maybe it didn't push itself to crit threshold and probably limit it to reduce stage cost to minimum of 1 / both effects only apply to styled attacks.. but still. I like the card and what it is trying to do, regardless of what people say about it. Orange Energy Focus, okay I'll admit, I'm a bit biased on this one. Yes, the fact that this card is just basically a better version of Decap is going to upset people. Yes, just like with Decap this card immediately gets set as a 3-of in any deck looking to squeeze as much power and consistency from their energy beats as they can. But you know what else this card is great for...? My abandoned Combative Gohan deck! That's right! LOOK AT THIS GLORIOUS CARD! I can tutor it with Gohan level 2, if I use it as just it's own base attack I can drain myself to 0 AND have the advantage of it not banishing after use so that I can just combative mastery it back into the deck for the following combat, and if I need the utility of an attack in my discard I have all of that at my disposal on demand as well. I LOVE this card. Was SO excited when I read this thing. Can't wait to test the deck out and see how it does with this new goodie. Other notable cards I would like to mention; Red Focus says Hello to Red Frieza, Red Vegeta (Pick your flavor) and Red Tien. Resourceful Dabura is coming, so get your bodies ready. The new Krillin ally with Set 4 Goku or Hercule is going to get silly for some decks to try and get around, and I am enjoying all the support going to Conflict and Enlightened Masteries. We only have a week left before the set drops, and only a week after that until Grand Kai so my mind has been trying to go over as much of the dumb interactions as I can of what has been released. It has been a long 7 months of no sets but the set so far is something else, that's for sure.
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