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Denithan

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Everything posted by Denithan

  1. ... why didn't I think of that? I love it. Especially with Cooler |: All of the punishment. On the topic of Ginyu, I'm really curious what his main draw is to you guys. I wasn't really around during the early days of PanZ, so I never really saw him at full-strength, and nowadays, his toolkit seems a bit... Lacking? A named Level Up is rather strong, and I can see the utility in Captain Ginyu's pain. His power letting you pull any Ally without hitting also seems mighty strong, especially for an old MP. He also has access to Recoome, but this still all seems underwhelming next to MPs like Frieza. Like, taking Frieza - Resident of HFIL and Frieza - Golden as your alternative, you have an MP which instantly jumps to 2, can rejuvenate named cards from banished zone (and through Frieza's Arrogance, grab an ally in the same fashion as Ginyu can), brings more synergy with Chilled/Cold/Cooler, can restore their own stages, has some pretty strong AT defense, comes with a named Omni-Block, gives access to Supernova, and... Yeah? Probably completely ignorant to what makes Ginyu a strong option, but that is why I am asking xD Like, historically, he was insanely strong for his time and came well before the game was ready. But nowadays, he feels like standard fare?
  2. Freestyle: Suppressive Strike, Stomach Crusher, On The Move!'s parenthetical (stops a skip technically, but that disrupts their gameplan a lot), and I think that's it? Styled: Blue Battle Drill, Saiyan Interruption, Saiyan Recovery It is funny to me that Saiyan is both the primary Skip Style, and the style with the most anti-Skip. Besides that though, I straight up think Blue Tag Team Mastery is probably the most versatile anti-Oppressive option at the moment. With a Villain Personality for Paragus, or with Goku Ally to search out Battle Drill. Another option I've been thinking as a counter-pick would be an old-school Namekian "Wall" DB deck. These Oppressive decks somewhat rely on the opponent not being ready to handle their offensive, and on them not being punished for ducking and weaving through combat. So, how does a pure DBV deck go against them? Still probably not well, but 'ey, it's worth a shot xD
  3. I would argue that Kid Trunks is actually as good an MP as the others are, just that he sees a lot less play because he's kind of ham-strung to specific playstyles. His Quickness Drill won't get discarded, is considered styled, and gives you stages + an extra draw. This gives him some hand generation to keep pushing pressure. His Energy Burst forces a skip. With his Level 1, not to mention Oppressive, this is potentially a massive stage gain card for 5 life cards. The card may as well read "Gain 2-4 stages," raises your own anger, lowers anger, and lets you tech any styled energy combat. His Level 1 can force a skip, gain stages, lower anger, and raise its own anger. His Level 3 can gain up to 10 stages after a skip and draws an extra card. His Level 4 is the ultimate level for Energy Beats decks. I think he has access to Dr. Brief? But also, Goten as a combat ender. Deconstructing him like this, the only real downsides of Kid Trunks are his Level 2 and the fact that you're forced into a Skip-focused playstyle; but with Oppressive Mastery, that's kind of what you want. If we continue with the others as sports cars, I'd say he's formula 1. Incredibly powerful and efficient, but fairly frail and really needs a certain kind of road to perform. ftr, I've not seen the deck that's won, but looking him over, he's got some really solid options and he was built for Oppressive. Heck, Oppressive allows him to operate at above-average levels while camping at 1. Throw in things like Overpowering Aura Drill to recur Sword Skill, Suppression Drill to slow your opponent's deck and net some deck destruction (as Oppressive will make up the difference for you), Corruption Drill for some overkill and some weird cards like Saiyan Clash and you could even go for a deck destruction build instead of just Beats. Alternatively, do what I think would be the smart thing and go for life card beats with a drill focus. Turning Kick for unpreventable 7 life cards + drill recursion, Tandem, Aerial, Allied Blitz, Assisted Kamehameha. On your final point of, does the style require stage modifiers; Probably not, but it needs a strong enough MP to make-up the gap between styles, and you're pretty much locked to Oppressive if you want to do really well. Future Gohan is a really hard one for me to place because of that.
  4. tl;dr my thoughts: Saiyan Oppressive can easily function as a low-key replacement for Empowered. This enables a lot of the tempo-based cards in Saiyan. Skip-Beats and Clench-Beats are both very well fleshed out archtypes. Probably the most well-fleshed out in the game atm, but definitely in Saiyan. Few decks in this format are built to deal with Oppressive Beats. All of the MPs that are doing well with this Mastery are still strong MPs even when their Mastery gets shut down. Personally, I think what's helping Oppressive out a lot is that it can low-key act as a substitute for Empowered Mastery and, in much the same way, better enables the Tempo play-style that Saiyan generally goes for. Adding to that, Skip-Beats is one of the more fleshed-out Saiyan decks alongside Clench, and I think that consistency in theme and focus lets them perform at a much higher level than other Saiyan styles. Also, Clench has a LOT of pressure, and if even one hit gets through, your entire game plan can get fucked. Another thing worth mentioning is that pretty much all Oppressive Decks are heavy-beats decks with a passive control over a combat in the middle of a control-heavy format. I plainly don't think most decks at this time are built for these match-ups, and if even one combat goes poorly for these control decks, Oppressive decks can capitalize and really run away with themselves. And lastly, all the MPs that are getting through to the top with Oppressive are strong MPs even without Oppressive Mastery. I would say the MPs are high-performance sports cars, and that Oppressive Mastery is a nice, long stretch of road where they can really let loose on. Even Nappa. Nappa would be a muscle car. Something like a mustang, maybe. (Broly is then a more recent model of muscle car.)
  5. Yeah, I kind of agree after getting back into watching the tournament circuits. About the only thing I'd like to throw out there is that Swap!Hirudegarn most likely deserves a mention in the Tier 1/2 area, and the presence of the Blue Dende Leader likely forces Blue Gogeta/Kid Buu right up to the top of the charts. That said, I think just about any Swap/Disruption deck is probably tier 1. Well, Goku's Lineage Swap. Frieza Swap just doesn't have the cards to really place at all. I am also curious about Super Shenron as a leader, and if he'll start to see more play over time as it does deal with one of the biggest issues facing Shenron decks and hard-counters the Janemba match-up. And honestly, I think we're moving towards A Child's Wish getting restricted in some way, just because it makes too many otherwise "okay" engines completely unreasonable (Kid Buu, Super 17, Cell, etc.) and it's too universally good for Shenron decks. I wish I could say I see Swap getting hit, but tbh, I don't.
  6. I am incredibly interested in that Tao deck. Please keep me updated and post on that one xD In regards to your Black Mischevious Build, have you tried out Krillin? Just, spring-boarding off of what I think your Roshi build was, I feel like the newer Krillin MP might actually be able to do the same thing, but a touch better. Plus, access to 18 Ally and helpful techs in his named cards could really push things along. I also find it kind of interesting that we're both struggling with the exact same decks |: If you can come up with any techs to really help out, shoot them my way. Honestly, I'm pretty happy with where I've gotten Tien at for now. I think I'm going to change gears and try out a similar build with a different MP before coming back and giving him another go. Honestly, the next most obvious MP for the Charge engine is easily a Stage-Beats Gohan deck since I can take full advantage of Adept that way and I can just throw out Orange Luxury from the Sword Chop search to net an extra action, and I'll probably throw in . It's not quite as destructive as Tien, and honestly, I think it's a lazy af build, but it's a good way to get a feel for how the engine plays with other MPs. Besides Gohan (and Drawku), I'm thinking there could be something interesting with Bardock? It's honestly kind of hard to say since I want an MP with a good named event to play around with. Heck, maybe even Cooler or Frieza could rock it...? Hrm. Elsewhere, I'm kind of washing my hands of Boujack. |: Honestly, I find him to be one of the most boring MPs I've ever played. There's nothing really wrong with him per se, but I just can't find a build with him that I enjoy playing. He's just too... Blue? Which is weird, because I normally love Ally MPs (Babidi, Cell, Broku, etc.), but I'm just so done with Bojack from the get-go. Maybe it's because he doesn't really bring anything new to the table? Or maybe I've just played that deck type too much?
  7. Oh, they definitely can. Honestly, this deck is perhaps over-reliant on good timing with when you play what cards, but you also have access to things like Heroic Jab, Tri-Beam, and Heroic Dashing Punch to try and bait out your opponent's blocks before you start dropping the more important cards. I can't speak with specialized expertise on how well this set-up will work against more advanced players, but I did find that when one of my friends decided to try and change gears and exclusively save blocks for the Charge/Chop play, he was taking so much damage and losing so much ground to my other freestyle attacks that I didn't NEED Charge/Chop (especially after you set-up Aggressive Sword Drill, and Pesky Blast becomes an unpreventable -10 life cards). That said, your opponent's hand is always something you need to be aware of, and that's honestly why I've ended up with so many filter cards in the deck. Gathering checking top 5 and giving you a draw, as well as Luxury and Preparation if you're running it (I took it out for space) really helps with searching out your Confrontations, and if they use a Sphere on your confrontation, then you can feel a bit safer in that you'll probably get away with Targeting, and if they don't, then you can scan their hand and figure out how likely you are to pull off your move. You can also pull a similar thing in principle by running Spying Drill, though I don't really like Spying Drill personally and have found that Freezing Drill almost removes the need for that extra scanning. Supreme Kai is one of the more coin-flipp-ey match-ups in my experience, in no small part thanks to Halt! and his sheer ability to control the pace of combat. One thing I found that helped against my friend was just playing around my bigger comboes and running him out of actions early in the match so that he couldn't fully build the board necessary to hold me off; eventually, he'd need to relent and let me pop off, and you honestly only need to pop off the once to really control the game. And unless you're rather unfortunate in luck, you honestly only need the one card + Tien's power TO pop-off. Ultimately, this is a match-up where you want to enter combat as much as possible early on, and really play out all your filter cards and freestyle attacks. This is also the main match-up where I'd say Preparation is incredibly helpful, as the extra draws are so valuable and you can use Orange Memory as essentially an extra 3 copies of Orange Luxury. Even with all this though, Supreme Kai CAN play around you if they get the right draws, and the matches I had were honestly so back and forth that I don't know if this deck CAN outmaneuver Supreme Kai. On the note of defensive decks in general though, I actually think this deck has an easier time with them then they do all-out aggro decks. With defensive decks, you can play around them, and you can play out all your draw cards knowing that they'll need time to take advantage of how quickly you're burning through your own deck; Things like Broly, or full-agro Majin Vegeta, are a different story. Even if you get the blocks out there to stop the bigger swings, they can chip you into submission by just not relenting and I can't figure out how to make the deck win that survival race. Which is frustrating me, because I can't figure out why it can take on Dabura, but can't take on Broly |: What about your deck adventures btw? How has the testing been lately?
  8. @Amanax UPDATE: The deck works. Really, really well. I played for a decent while yesterday, against a variety of decks, and while there were some painfully brutal match-ups (Pikkon literally makes it impossible to win and M. Vegeta really hurt the Adaptive build), against aggro-tempo decks like Dabura, the deck starts to really hammer home hard with only a little bit of set-up and can actually go beat-for-beat against Dabura. I would actually say that Red Sword Dabura is the most similar deck in terms of it's ability to tutor cards and keep a combat going for awhile, and plays a similar match-up against Supreme Kai/Babidi decks; All you need is one strong combat, and you can almost seal the game just from that. I mentioned before how the deck comboes, and what cards are played to bring it together, but I don't think it really hits home until you actually get a Charge -> Charge -> Sword Chop where the latter two are hitting for 11 stages/13 life cards respectively, and that just OPENS you up to Targeting/Draining Blast/Tri-Beam. And that's one card in your hand that can lead into 7 high impact attacks, without factoring in anything you search with Aggressive, Tien's power, or any other drills in play. And heck, once you're nearing the end of your loops, you can rejuv Preparations to grab an extra action. That all said, I don't think I've really found the true value of the Orange/Freestyle Tenshinhan yet. What yesterday did was really help put the deck into perspectives, and show me it's strengths and its weaknesses.The strengths being: - That the deck is unrelenting. - Does not rely on its drills at all. - It has an insane amount of tutoring/stack/draw power, making it incredibly easy to set up (especially with Orange Gathering combo'ing into Orange Luxury). - On from the above, with Confrontation and Spheres, you can force a bad combat on the opponent. People do NOT expect this of an Orange deck, and when your drills only serve to restrict their plays, they'll often opt for board control instead of trying to nerf your hand. There is almost a freedom in this compared to other Orange builds I've played, where I'm legit only running Drills that mess with my opponent. Examination Drill is there to keep both players down in anger, Driving Drill hurts Babidi badly, Shopping Drill makes the entire fight an uphill climb for M. Vegeta, and Aggressive Sword Drill hurts high endurance builds. My drills are a constant priority for my opponent, but they mean nothing to my game plan. The weaknesses of the deck? - It's much more reliant on luck than most other decks in the competitive scene. This is just owing to the named cards self-destruction your deck, and the need for Charge to pass 10 cards before you hit another Orange. If the Orange attacks are stacked by some impossibly bad stroke of luck, you're going to be hitting like a wet noodle. - The suicide-rampage build is incredibly easy to play around once you figure out what it's doing. Just start going for pure damage, and Tenshinhan starts to fall behind the curve. - A couple of bad damages from the opponent before you've started stacking your deck can decimate your game plan. - Pikkon. - Broly. These lessons in mind, I actually think the best possible deck for Tenshinhan is a hybrid somewhere between these two builds. An Adept build with all the filtering cards, the necessary blocks to hold off some of the nastier match-ups, Checkup Drill to grab said block, and a mix of good life card damage and good utility cards. I have one very important question following this though: How does Awakening Gohan interact with Orange Charge? |:
  9. Hrm. After playing around some more, I've come up with two versions of the deck, that are both using the Orange Charge -> Sword Chop setup to help things along. One of them is a bit more traditional of a deck for PanZ, with around 12 effective blocks for Physical and 9 for Energy, Time, and a heavy focus on life card damage. This is using things like Playful Punch, Pesky Barrage, etc. to only ever swing for life card damage, with Reality Check to help with board control. This deck also runs Adaptive Mastery so that my leveling doesn't hurt me as much, as well as letting me hit the numbers necessary to consistently grab crits. Ultimately, I'd say this deck is the "safe" build and it runs pretty well actually. Adaptive also lets me grab back some of my more helpful Drills from drop when dealing with a lot of board control, and thanks to your suggestion of Examination Drill, I am actually able to keep both players anger relatively in control. The other is one that I built more from your advice, and is also a lot, lot riskier. It runs a heavier drill package, this time including Freezing Drill, Shopping Drill, and Possession Drill and has a lot more hand/deck filtering in cards like Orange Luxury. I've also maxed out it's copies of Orange Memory and it has 2 Orange Fixation to grab out Aggressive Sword Drill (with the other being either Endurance, or discard fodder with all your hand filtering). This one is a lot less focused on Life Card Damage than the other, which can slow it down considerably as you get further into a match, but has a lot more in the way of combo-ability with Dashing Sword Attack and Devilish Sword Attack to help build pace. I've also thrown Android Arm Breaker in this build to stop my opponent from forcefully leveling me as well as for Endurance, and it has Heroic Jab/Reality Check to help control the board. Now, with only 6 Styled Attack cards total in the deck, this deck can run into issues with actually using the Adept Mastery to full efficiency, but weirdly, thanks to all the hand filtering and tutoring Events, this is largely a non-issue. That said, what makes this deck so much riskier is that the two engines didn't leave enough space for very many blocks.... And I fully swung into that and dropped Blocks from the deck entirely. So this is a suicide-rampage Tenshinhan deck, but thanks to Confrontation, Hand Filtering, the ability to tutor cards back from drop, Tien's power, and Freezing Drill, when it pops off, it doesn't stop for awhile... Like, play-testing it with a friend, I had one turn where Sword Drill'd a Sword Chop to hand, I Confrontation'd away their only block, had Charge AND an extra Sword Chop already in hand, used Tien to grab Targeting, and then just... Kept going. For awhile. And with all the hand filtering and drawing, this kind of setup isn't super hard to get live. But yeah, honestly, after experimenting between a more "standard" Orange deck and the Charge/Sword Chop Freestlye engine, I've found the latter is shockingly more consistent and just gives more advantages. Like, there's an unspoken advantage it gives you in a Tien deck in that you can stack all of your most important cards at the bottom of your deck so they're still available (I'd recommend doing this between Preparations and Draining Blast, as every time you tutor, you lose your stack), not to mention that if you go Charge -> Charge -> Charge, the latter two are most likely going to have a +10 stage modifiers bonus on them, and will hit for 11 stages each. I'm going to have a few friends over to play-test more tomorrow though. Sadly, my locals out here doesn't really do anything with the game, so that's the limit of how much I can test this.
  10. Hrm... I tried it out with Red Announcement, and it does offer you some extra access to a few of his named cards. But that's actually kind of started me down yet another route with Tien... (Alright, so I'm 100% sure that someone has already tackled this, and has probably done it with a lot of success, but tbh, I've not really gone looking for other people's takes on the deck just because I like to keep it fresh when I'm first building it.) Anyway, the idea of using Red Announcement to filter through Tien's named energy blasts reminded me of Orange Sword Chop. And like that, you can see where I've taken this deck. I've gone Adept again, just because Tien is 100% a camper, but with his natural anger gain, I'll likely swap over to Combative just because I can't find a way to consistently get my anger down in Orange outside of using Orange Meditation on myself (which can go real badly). What's really frustrating is that, if his Level 2 was better, I actually think he'd make a potent and powerful stack, but instead I'm trying to work around him levelling Anyway, I'm basically rocking 3 Pulverize to search for Orange Sword Chop at the end of a turn, 3 Orange Sword Chop to search for Tenshinhan's Targeting, Targeting searches out Tenshinhan's Draining Blast, Draining Blast then rejuvenates Targeting (which gives +5 stages), and then I can use Tien's power to grab Targeting back and go for another Draining Blast and you can kind of see the pattern of the deck. The big issue facing the deck is; I have almost no way to get anything else besides Targeting back from my banished turn-on-turn unless I include something like Defiant Challenge to grab back my banished Draining Blasts, which I can then use to get back my... Defiant Challenge? I will admit that it's a really fun deck that burns both players to a crisp very quickly if your opponent doesn't play the right cards at the right time. That said, I'm yet to actually pull off a win with the deck because I can't find a consistent way to stop my leveling and I run out of steam IMMEDIATELY after I hit Level 2. You guys got any thoughts? EDIT: Also just adding, a fun idea I've been playing around with but have yet to try is going for Orange Charge to help me stack my deck and search out Orange Sword Chop. So running a deck that's just Freestyle combat cards, Orange Charge and Orange Sword Chop, and getting really weird with things. Not sure what Mastery I'd go for if I did this though...
  11. Honestly, I fall into the same boat with the level-hopping blocks. They're not as much of a universal staple as a lot of Red players insist precisely because they can really mess about some decks. But tbh, I'm still a bit iffy on Level-Hopping Tien. I recognize it's strength, and I have played against the kind of deck you're describing, but I can't help but feel it still has the same weakness that Tien does in general; That his level 2 is pretty mediocre, his 3 is just there to buff you to his 4, and his 4 is arguably not as versatile as his 1 (though, it can still be incredibly useful). It's just really weird that when they gave his stack some revival support, they replaced the only universally "good" level he has instead of fixing his stack. Like, level hopping Tien that can go from banishing to search for a named card, to rejuv'ing a named card from Banished (changing his new Level 1 to a Level 2) is overwhelmingly better than what we have right now, and then his 4 is something you can easily push up to for a winning turn. That said, atm, I'm trying to work with a Level 1 Camp Red Tien, and I'm not having the most luck, so I'm maybe not the ideal person to give my thoughts on tien |:
  12. Honestly, Tien is a giant pain in the ass to try and build for pretty much that reason. What makes it more frustrating is that his new Level 1 would actually function just fine as a level 2 to support his original stack. Honestly, I do kind of hope we get a "revival" set ala. Vanguard (G-Era) and Yu-Gi-Oh. Just a set dedicated to patching the holes of the older stacks and making them a bit more consistent (like how Raditz focuses on Setups/Drills on his even Levels, but hand advantage on his odds). The odd levels here and there are nice, don't get me wrong, but they're never quite enough to revive a deck or fix the problems with any given stack.
  13. To be honest, I have tried it out in Combative, and it's kind of a coin flip on if it's better or not. The extra focus on Drill Tutoring in my energy fills my deck with a few more dead cards once I get the more important drills out, and it honestly doesn't swing quite as much; On the flip side, it loses the "Suicide" element of the deck, so strictly speaking, it's probably the better build, but I'm not here to play well. I'm here to have crazy fun |: Speaking of, level hopping Future Gohan is honestly hilarious to play, but it's kind of led me on this weird journey to find the best personality to take advantage of Red Focus (so the one with the best Named Cards). So far, besides the obvious ones of Vegeta and Frieza, I'm actually vibing with Trunks, Krillin and Tien. All 3 of them have a pretty decent range of named cards that offer decent variety. Krillin especially has a lot to gain from rocking out RF, with extra access to Solar Flare to end bad combats, Kamehameha for board control, and Destructo Disc for that guaranteed damage when you need it. Right now, I'm trying him out in Ascension so that I can passively get some anger (and maybe some levels) by opening combats, using my Mastery, and then throwing out a Blinding Energy Move/Solar Flare to immediately end the combat, doing some small damage and gaining 2 anger (and stockpile setups/drills one I hit level 2), but I'm wondering if there's a more effective, less slow-burn Krillin deck in Amplified. Eh, I'll tool around with it some more.
  14. Nah, I'm not trying to level at all really. I've got Unleashed in the deck, but honestly, it's more to guarantee the attach than it is to level. Otherwise, the deck only has anger gain where it was attached to a different effect I wanted and it really just focuses on throwing out as many attacks as it can per combat.
  15. Freezing Drill, Aura Drill, and Hiding Drill to help with the lack of defense. Also probably worth noting that I'm running her in Adept, and really treating the drills more as a "nice when they're on the board" than as a real combo piece. To that end, I'm debating Driving Drill. I've edited it a bit since last night after a couple of games with my mate though, and I've ended up slotting in 2 copies of Battle Pausing (helps me ditch potentially dead cards), 3 copies of Pulverize (just to help build some consistency), and some odd bits of anti-anger because screw Rampaging Broly |: Surprised the deck won Grand Kai though. I've not looked at decklists yet, but I'm assuming that it was a more balanced deck?
  16. If I'm being honest, I've not really been trying out too many new decks after this last set release. I fooled around with Bojack in a couple of colors, actually kind of like him in Red, but I can definitely see his strength in Black and Blue. I've also tried out the new Broly stack in Rampaging, and honestly, he feels like a better version of the Awakening Trunks stack and is a massive pain to stop from MPPV'ing. Besides those little experiments though, I've just kind of been revisiting the odd deck here and there. So far, that's included revising Red Future Gohan (focusing on level hopping with Backlash and the Red blocks) and Orange Hero 18, trying out a build with no blocks, only 3 drills, 3 Events, and all Energy Attacks. That deck is actually kind of funny, but I don't think it's anything new for people, just one that I felt like going back to with Orange Palm Charge and Energy Focus now making an all-aggro strategy a bit more viable.
  17. Denithan

    Green Wish Broly

    Alright, so I've been experimenting around with a lot of different Wish decks, in large part because of how much I've been seeing them in tournaments, as well as out of my own interest in something like the Cheelai & Lemo + A Kind Wish loop (where you use Spirited Search, SS Trunks to just play A Kind Wish every turn). Now, while I really enjoyed the Cheelai & Lemo deck, my biggest gripe with it was just trying to find a strong end-game engine that can seal things up. Secondarily, A Kind Wish is rather slow for a Wish deck, with things like the Energy Restored Goku + Buu deck just flatly dominating it before you can get to the necessary 4 energy. I've tried fixing that by throwing in the Broly: Br engine, and I've also tried out a Super 17 engine. Neither has really done the job yet though, so I ultimately moved away from it, and to something... Eerily similar? Christmas (Tiny Warrior) Son Goku & Broly (or Super 17) Dragon Balls Dragon Ball x 6 Super Dragon Ball Alright, I don't think any Wish deck in the game is really running the numbered balls. If they are, they probably aren't running too many of them. In my case, I decided to rock 6 of the standard Dragon Ball, but also throw in a single Super Dragon Ball which I can grab with my leader turn 2 and then use to filter my hand and drop with my combo pieces. Honestly, it is INCREDIBLY handy. The GT-Wish Engine Uub, Symbol of Hope x 4 Spirited Search, SS Trunks x 3 Spirited Search, Pan x 3 Super Saiyan Son Goku (GT) x 1 The main thing that's kept me in Green Wish is the GT-Wish Engine, with Uub and SS Trunks sending 3 and 2 Dragon Balls from the deck to drop respectively. This isn't the BEST Wish engine in the game, I don't think; My money is still on Blue Wish being the dominant force to be reckoned with. What it does do is let me Awaken turn 2 so long as I get Uub, Trunks or Pan in my hand (ideally, Uub AND Pan). This also lets me get maximum value out of my Dragon Radars later on, and Spirited Search, SS Trunks just keeps on giving as you get into the late-game, and he starts handing you any Desire you long for. Enablers Newfound Power, Son Gohan x 4 Tenacious Spirit, Son Gohan x 4 Defensive Stance, SS Vegeta x 4 Alright, so I'm electing to call these two enablers just because of how annoying Pilaf's Dragon Ball search is. You basically NEED units you can drop turn 1 so that you can get the search off the next turn, and these two cards help maximize the value you get out of it. Additionally, thanks to Pilaf giving a power-boost, Tenacious Spirit, Son Gohan can actually swing into a leader early on, and maintains your hand advantage. Broccoli Endless Evolution Broly x 4 Rampaging Lifeform Bio-Broly x 4 Broly, The Rampaging Horror x 4 And then we get into the pressure plays of the deck; Evolving Broly. To be honest, he's not the best end-game. He's sincerely got NOTHING on the Union-Absorb Buu, and he doesn't do anything to stop Swap decks and the like from just running over you. That said, he does slow these decks down a LOT, potentially sniping important cards from Blue Wish decks while giving you some board control. Secondarily, thanks to the Evolution's Double Strikes and your Awakened Leader's final effect, he can often wrap up a game. Extra/Desire Cards Dragon Radar x 2 World Peace x 2 A Child's Wish x 4 And finally, we have the Extra/Desire cards. I know I'm not really taking advantage of the Green Wish desires here; to be honest, that's mostly because I don't think any of them are that good. I'm also missing out on Shocking Death Ball, and while I'm not opposed to throwing it back into the deck (drop SS Son Goku and probably World Peace), I've not really found it helpful to date. I'm keeping it in my side-board though, for those match-ups where it can really put in work. For anyone who doesn't know though, the basic principle of this kind of Wish deck is to dump key cards into your drop and bring them back early with A Child's Wish. So, for this deck in particular, you'd want to drop a Gohan turn 1, get a Dragon Ball Search off if you're going second (so attack), then end. Combo an Uub defensively to protect life on the opponent's turn, snipe a cost 1 if they have one out, and ditch 3 Dragon Balls (including the Super Dragon Ball if I have my combo pieces ready). Turn 2, if my Gohan is alive, I swing and grab a Dragon Ball. Then drop a Pan/Trunks finish dropping the Dragon Balls so that you can awaken. The pro of Pan/Trunks also being that you get two swings for one with those two, giving you some early game push-back. Alternatively, if you don't have the combo pieces, drab a Super Dragon Ball with Pilaf, play it, draw 4 ditch 2. Ideally, ditch Endless Evolution Broly and a Desires. Desires are just easy discard targets, in both this deck and the Super 17 variant, thanks to your awaken grabbing them back and SS Trunks grabbing them back. With Endless Evolution Broly in drop, you can use your Leader to play A Child's Wish and grab him back. From there, pay a 2-3 cost to evolve him into either Bio-Brolly, or Endless Horror and make the opponent drop 2. From this point on, the comboes start to largely sort themselves out, and you can just charge any extra Endless Evolutions you draw into (or pitch them for defensive comboes). A more consistent set-up than this though is the Super 17 engine: 4 HF17, 4 Android 17, then 2 Super 17, the Infernal Machine. What makes this more consistent is that HF17's Union-Absorb is costless and both grabs and evolves from drop so you can combo with all of the pieces for defense and keep on going. This also gives you a lot more targets for Super Dragon Ball, and potentially much more valuable ones as Super 17 can't have his attack negated. Android 17 can also be an incredibly valuable card, whether you're going for Endless Malice to keep the opponent's hand down, or Limitless Energy for a Barrier-Blocker. This version also has access to Hidden Feelings to re-stand HF17/A17, and I'd honestly say to throw that in there over World Peace. So, why am I playing with the Broly Evolve Engine instead of the Super 17 engine? MOSTLY for shits and gigs, but also just because I don't like paying the 2 card discard for 17. Honestly, this discard isn't too big of a deal thanks to SS Trunks, as you can just start pitching Desires for the cost and never really go down in advantage, and if we were to try and make this deck competitive, I'd say that 17 is the way to go as it keeps your energy completely open on your power turns. Some other tech cards for consideration though if anyone wants to take this deck for a spin: Frieza Army Healing Pod - Honestly, this card just generates hard advantage with this deck. Moreso if you rock it with Super 17, as HF17 grabbing him from drop will give you the draw. The longer this card is in play, the stronger it will be. Hyper Training SS Son Goku - This one is a card I keep going back and forth on. To be blunt, I don't like him. I don't like that he's a 2 cost with a 1 cost skill to change out for a Skill-Less Battle card. But if you're going for the Super 17 engine, this is a REALLY good card to keep the pressure up while you continue to whittle down your opponent's hand. Pretty much any Black Dragon Ball Support. As an aside, I want to say that the Cheelai & Lemo Wish deck just utterly dominates any deck that's not able to push for game in the first few turns. A Kind Wish stops any kind of set-up, and just neuters anything your opponent could possibly try to do. From there, you're just maintaining your hand and keeping up some form of pressure until they relent. I just don't think it's a good fit for this meta though.
  18. Not had a chance to play with it yet, but the cards that immediately stand-out to me: Reinforcements - Didn't we just get rid of this card? Jokes aside, an Event card that grabs an Ally from deck or drop with innate Endurance feels ill-placed in our current format, especially without any costs or restrictions. I'm not sure what they were thinking with this one, but I guess ally decks needed the extra freedom and support? Tenshinhan - Relaxed + Targetting - Honestly, I'm a huge fan of these two cards. I don't think it'll be enough to really revive Tien as a competitive deck, but I've gone up against some amazing Tien players before this support, and this can only help those players. Red Celestial Strike - Man, I don't even know a use for this card, but it feels really strong. Some free board control, some anger control on the opponent, and a bit of anger gain. Terrible damage, no endurance, and I can't think of a good MP for it, but I think this one could be a game changer in the future. Red Focus - We've spoken on this one. I actually do think this one is a pretty hype-worthy card, if not for M. Vegeta. It could still do wonders even against him, but it becomes a lot more circumstancial. Orange Energy Focus - We've spoken on this one. Orange Palm Charge - This card goes a fair way to make A18 and Yamcha very cost effective, very aggressive energy decks. Go in with a minimal drill package, just what you need to hold things together, and maintain a focus on just offense, and I actually think you could do real damage. Throw in Unleashed/other ways to attach it as well, and you can get some pretty good consistency out of it. Time will tell though. Black Mischief - This card feels like it could just keep on giving with the right MP, and weirdly, that's not with Saiyan MPs. I'm not 100% sure what deck could use this the best; surely there's some room for Tien, Supreme Kai can maybe do a couple of things, and there are probably comboes I don't even see with it. None of the Blue cards stand out to me, particularly. I can see their uses, I like extra support for the Sword Archetype, I might bring back my Blue Drill Trunks deck or I might experiment with Blue Dabura. So I like these ones, but none of them stand out. Namekian doesn't really have stand-out cards either, but I honestly don't think they need to. These cards are solid, they do their job efficiently, and they can add some variety to builds. I don't know if they'll really change the format though. Finally, I see Saiyan is being pulled in yet another Archetype/direction. I honestly feel like the main issue facing Saiyan as a style is a lack of a core theme that the decks can build off of. There are okay cards in here for Saiyan as a whole, but this doesn't really help with that issue. Ultimately, I come away pretty disappointed with this Set. I'm not sure about anyone else, but I had a pretty respectable amount of interest coming into this set (I was going to say hyped, but I think it has the wrong inflection for what I was). I was kind of hoping for something a bit... Well, I'm not sure what I wanted really. Maybe just for a bit of a chance in pace?
  19. Unfortunately, I don't have a dramatic amount to really contribute to the styled cards so far. My main feeling on them is that I like that they are all fairly distinct from each-other; Black has Events, Orange has Energy Beats, Red has Named Attacks, Blue has setups, Saiyan has Not!Rejuv/lockdown and Namekian has a utility/archetype card. I like that. It's only a few cards, but I like that each color is focusing on something different. I really hope that carries on through the set. On the whole Red V Orange thing, I lean towards Amanax's thinking in that the two still feel rather distinct. Especially with Juke and Stop, since Stop will always place it into play, while Juke is mostly a Rejuv unless you're playing it fairly early or something has gone horribly wrong (in my experience). Stop is also not brutally murdered by Majin Vegeta, so in this meta I'd say it's the stronger of the two. That said, I don't think Orange is doing as badly as stated going from the Dead Zone reports, with two different Orange decks (& Masteries/MPs) placing second and third in the Dragon Prix. I definitely think the style is having a harder time of late than it historically has, and is perhaps leaning on MPs to help sustain pace, but I don't know if that's necessarily a bad thing. I'm also not sure if that's even untrue for all the other styles right now. A bit of a side note, but it only just clicked with me while I was looking over the cards that Saiyan has a theme of HIT effects. I want to clarify here that I always recognized those strong HIT effects, but I've never really recognized it as one of Saiyan's themes any more than any other color had them. Mostly just thought of the style as a cluster of different themes aimed at beatdown that dropped MPPV for easy-leveling.
  20. Oh, I'm straight up not even trying to justify what the anime did with the BoG and RoF retellings, just that there was some merit to the new scenes. As I said, I REALLY don't want a repeat of that shit, but a retread of the Broly arc which spends more time exploring Saiyan culture in the flashbacks, that lets us see more of the fight between Frieza and Broly, and maybe at least mentions the fact that the fight broke through dimensions could have some merit. There are some pretty interesting things that could be explored in Broly, like Cheelai's background, what life in the Frieza Force is like to ordinary soldiers like Lemo, and heck, even some more scenes of Broly growing up and how Paragus was with him could give the story some extra depth. I have NO faith in them to do any of this, but it's there. It just flat out wasn't even THERE for BoG or RoF in the first place, so those were both doomed from the get-go. And I agree that Dragon Ball needs to focus less on new forms, but there is still an issue in that the genie is out of the bottle with Evolution and Kaioken. And the main thing that's bothersome is that there didn't even really need to be an extended fight scene with these forms; at the end of the day, they're both just changes to Blue's aura, and it would've been easy to draw the respective auras on Goku and Vegeta when they fired the Galick Kamehameha. Just that little visual tick signifies to us the full levity of Broly's threat. That said, I do hope for a Fourth-Grade/Full Power-esque explanation for Blue if they do retread the water here. Something that makes Kaioken and Evolution power-ups irrelevant. Also, it hits me now that the movie full-well could've followed the manga's timeline, and that the implication could've been Goku and Vegeta using SSB-Full Power, which... I'm actually kind of down for? Also, if I'm honest, I really didn't take to the whole Goku Jr./Vegeta Jr. thing that GT tried to lead off into. It was never really an issue of it not being Goku for me though; I'd quite like a series following Gohan, Goten, or even Pan. Heck, I'd be down for an Uub-led tale without all the Saiyan tack, even after Goku's "left forever." But if we're going to do a "next generations" thing, then let it be a NEXT generation. Not just a rehash of Goku, with a character who looks like him, has a lot of his traits, and uses his same techniques. That's not a next generation, that's a cop-out and an excuse to remaster the same exact story, even with the same rival. I honestly think if you're going to do a next gen for Dragon Ball, then go all in and don't just redo the Dragon Ball of yesteryear. I agree that Super is an awkward middle point, and what's sad is that it didn't need to be. I bring it up a lot, but it's honestly one of the things that the Future Trunks Saga showed me. There are plenty of ways to give us compelling stories throughout this universe with lasting, permanent consequences that wouldn't interfere with the end of Z, and those consequences could do wonders for the show. Heck, they COULD have done an entire rehash of the Shadow Dragon Saga, and make it so that the End of Z was a world without Dragon Balls (which also adds extra layers of humor to Bulma's frustrations).
  21. On the point of missed opportunities, I wasn't so much bothered by the lack of MUI, but more so by the lack of the forms preceding it. Where was Blue Evolution, and Kaioken x20? Honestly, the impression it leaves is that Goku and Vegeta either dicked around too much to access their strongest forms, or that Broly wasn't yet such a threat that those forms were necessary. That said, I think those missed opportunities come back to how inflated the movie was. Going by what Toriyama was saying going into the movie, and by the novelization of the movie, there was a LOT that had to be cut out to make it as short as it was. Adding to that, I imagine they had to cut out the Frieza V Broly fight (which still felt really janky to me at the end, where Whis jumps in), and they probably had to cut out those final forms. The dragon ball point is something that honestly is just a plague to the show in general, and it's what made things like Trunks' future and the Shadow Dragon Arc in GT work. They're a narrative device which originally had a lot of holes to jump through, but that got made way too generalized to the point where they're just harmful. Back when the body needed to be preserved, and you had to know where it was, and where there were pretty clear limits to it's power, it was fine. They served a similar narrative purpose, but there was still some real risk at hand if the body was destroyed. Unfortunately, I do think they're going to do a movie recap when the series relaunches, but honestly, I'll still probably give it a watch. Just, given how much they (supposedly) had to cut out of the movie in order to make it the right length, I think there's a lot they could add that we've straight up not seen. Kind of like the scenes where we got to see Goku and Vegeta first find Blue. There's some genuine value to retreading these waters if they do so, but my god, I really hope they don't do it like they did with Battle of Gods and RoF. That shit was rough. I do want to throw out there that I am glad for what we got. I liked having a story that didn't focus too much on Goku and Vegeta, but more on a new character that we've not really gotten to know. I'm glad that they didn't go with this stupid destined children, born at the same time nonsense that was put forward in the trailers. I loved seeing King Cold again, if only briefly, and I really hope that we get to see more of his legacy as the series continues (as I think it's one of the few interesting things leftover from Z they can chase). I liked that the movie didn't focus TOO much on the Broly fight (which was the part I liked the least); it was still a large part of the movie, but it didn't take the dominant part of the run-time, and the focus was definitely more on the history of the Saiyans and on introducing new characters. That said, while I enjoyed the first half of the fight, I could take it or leave it after Broly transformed. At that point, it got a bit too hectic and all-over the place to really satisfy any kind of itch, or to clearly see what the characters were doing. I also really liked how much of a great job they did with some of Broly's expressions, especially when you see him recoiling from Gogeta Blue in fear. How you see his pupils, his expression, and how his body is shaking. That was something I haven't seen in Dragon Ball before, and I think that level of focus on body language does a lot to build a more reserved character like Broly.
  22. Honestly mate, that's completely fair. There is a lot of legitimate criticism to be levied at Panini America, and a HELL of a lot of criticism to be levied at Dragon Ball nowadays. For the record, I didn't mean my comment as a dig at you, nor was I trying to make you feel bad. It's just concerning how frustrated you seem to be, to the point that it seems like the IP just stresses you out nowadays. But hey, if you're enjoying the English dub (even as a guilty pleasure), more power to you man. God knows, I watched/read Bleach to the end as a guilty pleasure, regardless of how utterly terrible it got. Also, this got really long, so I'm going to section it to make it easier to read: Vic Voice Actors Cult Followings (Star Wars V Dragon Ball) Anime in the Digital Era On the topic of the thread though, tell me if you ever do give Broly a shot. I'm actually pretty down to talk about the good and the bad of the movie. Shit, give me a holler if you wanna talk about any of this stuff, it's all pretty fascinating to me.
  23. @Card Slinger J , dude, I gotta seriously ask, do you actually engage with things in a positive light at all? Like, I feel that there is a certain credence and power that is lent to approaching things with critical eyes and some level of negativity. But I do not think I have ever seen you post on this forum in a manner that could be considered positive. And I need to sincerely ask; Is that what you're like in general, or is it simply that you only engage when you have something you are bothered by/about? Beyond that though, on your point of Vic, I don't know if it will hurt the series too dramatically. It's one character with a singular canon appearance to date, with whom younger viewers wouldn't know from the older movies. Beyond that, Broly is a largely silent character who is more expressive in his reactions, body language, and (in the old movies) his taunts. He is not a character who gives exposition, or who really communicates in gainful ways. That point, plus the allegations and scandals surrounding Vic at present, whether you agree with them or not, means that this is definitely a positive PR stunt on the behalf of Funimation, and NOT one that will ultimately cut into their viewings (and definitely not nearly as much as the contrary action would've). The only people for whom this would damage the show would be long-term fans dedicated fans of Vic's work, and while he is quite a talented voice artist, I don't feel that following is enough to really dissuade or damage Dragon Ball in a meaningful way. Especially not when a lot of that fan community around Vic has become as toxic as it has. I'm also somewhat critical of your attitude that "it won't be the same without him." While Vic is a solid voice actor, by no means is he the best, and by no means is he the only one who can bring a character like Broly to life. Especially when Broly is only now getting a fleshed out character who is dramatically departed from the one that Vic originally worked on. On the front of the Japanese Sub, I again don't really feel that there's too much damage being taken on the voice acting front. As it stands, Japanese audiences seem to have no outspoken issues with the voices, and very few of the VAs have expressed a wish to move on from the project. That said, once they do, so long as they handle the "passing of the torch" in an open and respectful manner, then long-term viewership shouldn't suffer. We have seen this before, many times, and while you'll have an initial backlash from the (bordering-on-cultist) fans of the old VAs, as long as it is that VA's choice, and they are open and clear about why they chose that, then viewership shouldn't suffer in the long-term. There'll still be a drop off around the adjustment period where the new VAs are finding their feet and their takes on the characters, but these dips normally pass relatively quickly. Also, sorry that you got the movie spoiled for you, but I need to wonder why you engaged with these YouTubers quite to the degree you did? I'm not a long-term follower of Geekdom, but from what I've seen, he's normally quite good at giving spoiler warnings in advance. Either way, I would still recommend you see the movie since there is a lot to be said about how beautiful and fluid the newer animation was. The plot still has some issues here and there, largely born from Dragon Ball's power scaling, but it was definitely the best Dragon Ball movie to date, and spoilers really shouldn't bar you from enjoying it for what it is. And if nothing else, in your statements, you need to be aware that for better or worse, Dragon Ball sustains. Around criticisms of the original, it sustained, around controversy, it has sustained, and against fan outrage, it sustains. It even sustained having a successor show (GT) that largely "tainted" the show in the eyes of audiences. Even Toriyama giving up on Dragon Ball, and moving on, even with Toyotaro and the animation studio following in tow, would not stop Dragon Ball at this point. There is too much of a cult(ure) built around it, in the West, but ESPECIALLY in the East, for it die off any time soon and with any ease. Broly's insane viewership has proved that it's still financially viable, FighterZ's popularity is evidence enough of the game's being viable (with Super Dragon Ball Heroes now coming to the West in response to the IP's near-blanket viability), and while there is an outspoken minority voice that held disdain for Super (myself included), the majority voice does not care and was satisfied with it's overall quality. Dragon Ball is, kind of horrifically, still growing in size and popularity, and even if Toriyama gives up on it and says there's nothing more he can do with it, Jump will keep it going. Only way off now is for the series to continue long-enough for the world to get sick of it, and with how much ground it has gained since Super launched (especially remembering that early Super was heavily criticized and hated), it would be willfully choosing the facts to not acknowledge that it's going to persist like this for a long time. Whether it's good, or not.
  24. I think you somewhat missed what I was saying on Bojack there xD I don't think he needs Blue by any means, I just find his design boring as it hits all the same points as Blue to a T. If you make a list of things Blue does, and a list of things Bojack does, they'd just about be identical. Now that you bring up Discard Hate as an anti-Broly though, it does make me curious if this means that Majin Vegeta will continue as he has been, and if he will exist as a hard-counter to Broly.
  25. I figured I'd make this thread since several cards from the upcoming set have been shown now, and I figured it could be fun to talk about. Namely, we have new Broly levels and Bojack finally has an MP. Now, I'm not going to bother doing a full breakdown of either stack. There are plenty of those online already, and honestly, they are both very straight forward stacks that don't really require big breakdowns. But I do kind of want to explore the biggest positive I see in the new Broly levels; The ability to somehow restrict the old Broly stack. I know a lot of people would rebel against the idea, and just be incensed by the idea, especially since I don't think Broly has been performing THAT well in recent competitive scenes. But honestly, I'm just glad that it's even an OPTION now since previously, there was no way to restrict him without making the MP entirely unplayable. Now, if there is another big shift in the meta, and he starts to dominate entirely, they can emergency restrict one of his levels or something, and use that as a short-term fix while they work up to a newer fix. That said, it's also kind of cool that we now have Energy Beats Broly. I don't really think his new stack is quite as overwhelming as his classic stack, but I like it's synergy with Rampaging Mastery and the ability to almost just skip to level 3/4 off of a single decent combat. His first level comes across as serving the same function as Awakening Trunks(?), and his search on Level 2 basically gives you his 3 so long as you have ANY +2 anger card in hand already. That said, I could easily see this getting overwhelming/broken depending on what other cards come in this set. Bojack is considerably more boring, which I actually find surprising (at least, personally). I straight up think he's the entire Blue Style wrapped up neatly in a single MP, and considering that I main Blue and love Bojack, that feels like it's a love letter. But he's just not interesting to me? Anger control is neat, Level controlling is neat, his Setup and Ally aren't bad by any means, but he doesn't really capture me. I'll still give him a shot (probably on OCTGN), but he's TOO Blue in the same way that Bardock was... Well, yeah. Like, Blue thematically has Allies and Setups. He has that. It thematically has some anger control, both supporting their own, and lowering the opponent's. He has that. Blue has some controlled Rejuv. He has that. Blue has board control (Betrayal and co.). HE HAS THAT. It could be cool to have these Blue themes in the other colors, but he feels like a checklist. |: What do you guys think so far? Also, hoping for/looking forward to a new Gohan stack personally.
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