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Dragon Ball Super Anime Discussion

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Based on the new trailer for the upcoming Broly film, Dragon Ball Minus is now canon. Apparently Toriyama decided to make Raditz non-canon, retcon Goku and Vegeta's past including Bardock's rebellion against Frieza, change Broly (which was obvious), and Paragus (as If that wasn't enough already). Then for some reason he decided to change Frieza's base form color scheme just like he did with Future Trunks' purple hair. Gogeta isn't safe either. All of these unnecessary changes happening 20+ years later when we could've just had like I don't know, A NEW STORY!?!

The Dragon Ball Super anime has been confirmed to continue after the Tournament of Power arc next year with another retelling arc based on the upcoming Broly film. Really? After Battle of Gods and Resurrection 'F' they have us wait for ANOTHER new arc in the anime? Apparently Broly is going to be joining the Z Warriors as If we needed to add another Saiyan to the "roster" or should I say "peanut gallery". Why not focus on Gohan or Piccolo for a change? At least do something with Piccolo.

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7 minutes ago, Card Slinger J said:

At least do something with Piccolo.

They did. Just as he did before he's taking on the family roles that Goku neglects. He's now the grandfather that Goku isn't. Probably keeps Chi-Chi company at this point. 

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Fair enough though I do find it odd that the trailer says that Goku, Vegeta, and Broly were born "around the same time" even though Vegeta is 6 years older than Goku. At this point why don't they just retcon more of the Dragon Ball mythos by making Mr. Satan Vegeta's grandfather or that the fusion dance was only a dream that Goku had since nothing's canon anymore.

This is arguably the worst thing to happen to the Dragon Ball franchise since One More Day in Marvel Comics. What made characters like Goku and Bardock so appealing was that they were low-class nobodies who are essentially forced by random circumstances (whether it was a prophecy or a bump to the head) become heroes and overcome adversity.

Now they're being turned into destined heroes which makes the original source material a lot more trite and boring.

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On 10/5/2018 at 5:19 AM, Card Slinger J said:

Based on the new trailer for the upcoming Broly film, Dragon Ball Minus is now canon. Apparently Toriyama decided to make Raditz non-canon, retcon Goku and Vegeta's past including Bardock's rebellion against Frieza, change Broly (which was obvious), and Paragus (as If that wasn't enough already). Then for some reason he decided to change Frieza's base form color scheme just like he did with Future Trunks' purple hair. Gogeta isn't safe either. All of these unnecessary changes happening 20+ years later when we could've just had like I don't know, A NEW STORY!?!

The Dragon Ball Super anime has been confirmed to continue after the Tournament of Power arc next year with another retelling arc based on the upcoming Broly film. Really? After Battle of Gods and Resurrection 'F' they have us wait for ANOTHER new arc in the anime? Apparently Broly is going to be joining the Z Warriors as If we needed to add another Saiyan to the "roster" or should I say "peanut gallery". Why not focus on Gohan or Piccolo for a change? At least do something with Piccolo.

I actually really, really don't want to defend any of this. At all. I'm actually really frustrated and annoyed at all these changes, and I just... Why did they need to connect Broly by some random fate to Goku and Vegeta? Can't he have just been some random fucking Saiyan who still existed?

BUT. I do somewhat need to defend a different color scheme for Frieza. I don't know if we ever canonically saw flashbacks to the Frieza of yester-year, and his race can freely mold and change their bodies and colors. So in theory, he could've just rocked out that first form for a few years, then slowly molded it into something he likes more.

God I hope the rumors that Broly is going to become a Z-Fighter are just fucking false. My god, it's just... Enough. Enough.  Please.

EDIT: Alright, so I watched a video by TeamFourStar, and I can freely admit when I'm wrong. It seems like Toriyama's "retconning" a lot less than we think, and more like a lot of what we have already was filled in by someone else.

It's still frustrating to see so many changes to the story we know, but at the least, I have to give it to Toriyama that he's not "forgotten details," and from his perspective, is probably just working to fill in the blanks. After all, we know for a fact that he didn't watch too much of Toei's anime. I'm still bothered by him connecting Goku, Vegeta and Broly by fate though.

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Toriyama's not beholden to some other writer's version of his main character's origin (regardless of how much he's said he likes it). We already saw this version in Dragon Ball Minus - it's not a new development. We're simply seeing another divergence between "Toriyama-continuity" and "Toei-continuity" play out on screen. Just like Roshi's story of the Dragon Balls' origin or Dr. Frappe: "Our Lord Creator came up with something else, so we have no choice but to adapt that and quietly ignore what we came up with by ourselves."

The Lucas comparison is a good one - the Expanded Universe was not his story or under his control, so he had no problems overwriting whatever he wanted when creating new material. And really, why should he? It's not his problem that some people treat these ancillary things like immutable stone tablets handed down by Moses. If somebody wrote an origin story for my protagonist as a tie-in novel or something, I'd probably ignore it if I wanted to tell that story myself, even if it was good - because chances are it never lined up with my notions of what that story would be anyway.

Toriyama and Toei had a real opportunity to do something different with Dragon Ball Z, and that was to explore the history of the Super Saiyan or Saiyan God. They could have decided to tell us more about who those individuals really were and what they went through to get to that state, however; they decided to rehash some old idea that was done before. Stupidity. I get that they don't have as much creative space for new material due to the 3 year time gap between the end of the Buu arc and the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai but that isn't any excuse not to put in the effort.

I think Zephyr from the Kanzenshuu forums said it best:

Quote

And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.

 

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So, now that the Broly movie is all-but-released everywhere, and spoilers are abound, what is everyone's thoughts about what's happening with Dragon Ball? Heck, if you're one of the people who's seen the movie already, what are your thoughts?

I've not really seen the movie yet myself, but having seen a bit of the spoilers, it seems... Cool? I would never argue that Dragon Ball is a very deep, philosophical story, but it seems to hit a lot of the notes people would want from a Broly movie. Still a bit meh about Broly being a good guy, but his new backstory is kind of touching (in an abstract way), and I would probably like him if he wasn't unreasonably powerful. Like, put this at the end of the original Dragon Ball, pre-GoD stuff, and yeah, I could get behind it?

My biggest chagrin from the movie is mostly just that the future of Dragon Ball is pretty much tied to the train that is the 3 U7 Saiyans.

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I feel as though we only have ourselves to blame for what's currently happening with Dragon Ball. The reason why I say this is because we as a community have been begging for Dragon Ball to come back ever since the franchise ended during the 90's in Japan after watching countless reruns of the English Dub and for what? By settling for mediocrity in an overly saturated anime / manga market where animation studios don't have to put in the budget to tell a good story while constantly pandering to otaku culture?

People tend to forget that writing matters more than visuals and Toei completely lost sight of that when Toriyama made the bone headed decision to bring back Dragon Ball in 2015 right when the animation studio was pre-occupied with other anime projects such as One Piece and Pretty Cure. They have little to no interest in bringing back the Anime adaptation of Dragon Ball Super next year after the new Broly film when they're much better off having Toyotaro finish Dragon Ball Super through the Manga adaptation.

Tite Kubo did the same thing with Bleach after the Lost Substitute Shinigami arc.

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Alright, so coming back to this again because I finally got to see the Broly movie myself, and;

Honestly, it was fantastic. Surprisingly, they didn't retcon half as much as we all thought, if anything at all (Goku isn't as old as Vegeta/Broly, Bardock still has a final stand against Freeza [alluded to, but not depicted]), and just... Yeah.
Broly is a much stronger character. Both in power scaling, but also in terms of writing. You don't get to see a dramatic amount of his character in this sadly, but what we do see is more than enough to develop some kind of emotional connection to him and it's really interesting to see an "innocent Saiyan" discovering their universe again (ala. Goku, Gohan).

Some mild criticisms remain. I didn't like how they chant Broly/Gogeta's names. It was unnecessary and... Weird. Kind of pulled me out of the moment since the music prior to and following those moments was perfect. I'm also incredibly indifferent to Broly just naturally being able to reach Gogeta-esque levels of power. It feels like they threw the baby out with the bath water that he was introduced at such an insane level of power. Hrm.

As for what it did for the greater Dragon Ball story?

  • Well, Broly is now an ace in the hole. For either Freeza, or the Z-Fighters, we'll need to wait and see there. He's also been likened to Beerus in raw ability.
  • Goku and Vegeta now canonically know the Fusion Dance. Gogeta is now always in the cards so long as they're both featured characters.
  • Bardock doesn't have precognitive powers, but was able to sense that Freeza was going to wipe out the Saiyans, and was depicted as battle damaged and tired when he attempted to stop Freeza. He also cares about Raditz, at least in a fleeting, curious sense.
  • Freeza only owned the Saiyans for some 5 years before wiping them out. Cold owned them prior to that, and was previously the out-and-out galactic emperor, so a bit more lore for the family (even if we could infer it prior).

And I think that's it? If I've missed something, feel free to throw it in.

Not a perfect movie, but definitely a strong movie, and easily the best Dragon Ball movie to date. Probably an 8/10 for me? Would definitely be interested in an extended cut.

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With Vic Mignogna (English voice actor for Broly) gone from FUNimation, I'm not sure how I feel about their decision to fire him though to be fair the writing was already on the wall the moment they fired Bruce Faulconer during the heyday of the Kai Dub prior to the release of Dragon Ball Super however the circumstances were much different compared to what recently happened. Given what recently transpired I think this will hurt the English Dub for Dragon Ball Super more If Toei decides to bring back the TV Series with Broly making a few cameos which is a shame because the Dragon Ball franchise was what built FUNimation into what they are today.

Pioneer / Ocean Group may have been the one's to help kick start the North American Anime Renaissance of the late 90's and early 2000's, but it was FUNimation that picked up the slack after realizing just how good the TV ratings were for Dragon Ball Z on Cartoon Network's Toonami block. It only really started to go downhill for them when Toei felt it was necessary to remaster Dragon Ball Z without all the filler material where the voice actors were forced to divert from the original dialogue since Japan didn't like the idea of the Dragon Ball franchise being Americanized which led to Bruce Faulconer's departure from FUNimation.

Now I'm even less interested to see the new Broly film after already being spoiled to death by Dragon Ball YouTubers (looking at you Geekdom101 and MasakoX), especially when the firing of Vic Mignogna made it even worse because FUNimation is going to have to hire a new voice actor to replace him as Broly and it won't be the same without him. The Japanese Sub is even worse when you consider the voice actors being too old though I will give Masako Nozawa credit where credit is due, I admire her tenacity for being able to voice Son Goku for as long as she has. I just don't know how long Toriyama will be able to keep Dragon Ball going cause it seems like it's only getting worse.

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@Card Slinger J , dude, I gotta seriously ask, do you actually engage with things in a positive light at all?
Like, I feel that there is a certain credence and power that is lent to approaching things with critical eyes and some level of negativity. But I do not think I have ever seen you post on this forum in a manner that could be considered positive. And I need to sincerely ask; Is that what you're like in general, or is it simply that you only engage when you have something you are bothered by/about?

Beyond that though, on your point of Vic, I don't know if it will hurt the series too dramatically. It's one character with a singular canon appearance to date, with whom younger viewers wouldn't know from the older movies. Beyond that, Broly is a largely silent character who is more expressive in his reactions, body language, and (in the old movies) his taunts. He is not a character who gives exposition, or who really communicates in gainful ways.
That point, plus the allegations and scandals surrounding Vic at present, whether you agree with them or not, means that this is definitely a positive PR stunt on the behalf of Funimation, and NOT one that will ultimately cut into their viewings (and definitely not nearly as much as the contrary action would've). The only people for whom this would damage the show would be long-term fans dedicated fans of Vic's work, and while he is quite a talented voice artist, I don't feel that following is enough to really dissuade or damage Dragon Ball in a meaningful way. Especially not when a lot of that fan community around Vic has become as toxic as it has.
I'm also somewhat critical of your attitude that "it won't be the same without him." While Vic is a solid voice actor, by no means is he the best, and by no means is he the only one who can bring a character like Broly to life. Especially when Broly is only now getting a fleshed out character who is dramatically departed from the one that Vic originally worked on.

On the front of the Japanese Sub, I again don't really feel that there's too much damage being taken on the voice acting front. As it stands, Japanese audiences seem to have no outspoken issues with the voices, and very few of the VAs have expressed a wish to move on from the project. That said, once they do, so long as they handle the "passing of the torch" in an open and respectful manner, then long-term viewership shouldn't suffer. We have seen this before, many times, and while you'll have an initial backlash from the (bordering-on-cultist) fans of the old VAs, as long as it is that VA's choice, and they are open and clear about why they chose that, then viewership shouldn't suffer in the long-term. There'll still be a drop off around the adjustment period where the new VAs are finding their feet and their takes on the characters, but these dips normally pass relatively quickly.

Also, sorry that you got the movie spoiled for you, but I need to wonder why you engaged with these YouTubers quite to the degree you did? I'm not a long-term follower of Geekdom, but from what I've seen, he's normally quite good at giving spoiler warnings in advance. Either way, I would still recommend you see the movie since there is a lot to be said about how beautiful and fluid the newer animation was. The plot still has some issues here and there, largely born from Dragon Ball's power scaling, but it was definitely the best Dragon Ball movie to date, and spoilers really shouldn't bar you from enjoying it for what it is.

And if nothing else, in your statements, you need to be aware that for better or worse, Dragon Ball sustains. Around criticisms of the original, it sustained, around controversy, it has sustained, and against fan outrage, it sustains.
It even sustained having a successor show (GT) that largely "tainted" the show in the eyes of audiences.
Even Toriyama giving up on Dragon Ball, and moving on, even with Toyotaro and the animation studio following in tow, would not stop Dragon Ball at this point. There is too much of a cult(ure) built around it, in the West, but ESPECIALLY in the East, for it die off any time soon and with any ease. Broly's insane viewership has proved that it's still financially viable, FighterZ's popularity is evidence enough of the game's being viable (with Super Dragon Ball Heroes now coming to the West in response to the IP's near-blanket viability), and while there is an outspoken minority voice that held disdain for Super (myself included), the majority voice does not care and was satisfied with it's overall quality.

Dragon Ball is, kind of horrifically, still growing in size and popularity, and even if Toriyama gives up on it and says there's nothing more he can do with it, Jump will keep it going. Only way off now is for the series to continue long-enough for the world to get sick of it, and with how much ground it has gained since Super launched (especially remembering that early Super was heavily criticized and hated), it would be willfully choosing the facts to not acknowledge that it's going to persist like this for a long time. Whether it's good, or not.

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On 2/9/2019 at 5:49 AM, Denithan said:

@Card Slinger J , dude, I gotta seriously ask, do you actually engage with things in a positive light at all?
Like, I feel that there is a certain credence and power that is lent to approaching things with critical eyes and some level of negativity. But I do not think I have ever seen you post on this forum in a manner that could be considered positive. And I need to sincerely ask; Is that what you're like in general, or is it simply that you only engage when you have something you are bothered by/about?

It's true that I have been critical of Panini America's handling with the 2014 Dragon Ball Z TCG in the past but that's only because I wanted to see it live up to the same potential that everyone had with Retro Z back when Score knew what they were actually doing until GT came around. Unfortunately my naiveness blinded me from seeing the writing on the wall much sooner just like with every discontinued Trading Card Game / Collectible Card Game before it. I guess it's like the old saying, "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me." I've been fooled so many times that there's still a optimistic side of me hoping that one of those card games might take off.

I do at least try to engage in conversations in a positive light like whenever I'm trying to get feedback on a deck that I'm working on or when I try to offer advice in the hopes that Panini America will listen and apply it to the actual game. I just get tired of feeling disappointed every time I set my expectations too high on something that I want to succeed when it's sort of become a trend that I've gotten used to over the years I guess. I apologize If I came off being mostly negative on the forums but that was mainly in hopes that Panini America would actually take the complaints we had and improve upon the problems onto the actual game in a positive light.

On 2/9/2019 at 5:49 AM, Denithan said:

Beyond that though, on your point of Vic, I don't know if it will hurt the series too dramatically. It's one character with a singular canon appearance to date, with whom younger viewers wouldn't know from the older movies. Beyond that, Broly is a largely silent character who is more expressive in his reactions, body language, and (in the old movies) his taunts. He is not a character who gives exposition, or who really communicates in gainful ways.
That point, plus the allegations and scandals surrounding Vic at present, whether you agree with them or not, means that this is definitely a positive PR stunt on the behalf of Funimation, and NOT one that will ultimately cut into their viewings (and definitely not nearly as much as the contrary action would've). The only people for whom this would damage the show would be long-term fans dedicated fans of Vic's work, and while he is quite a talented voice artist, I don't feel that following is enough to really dissuade or damage Dragon Ball in a meaningful way. Especially not when a lot of that fan community around Vic has become as toxic as it has.
I'm also somewhat critical of your attitude that "it won't be the same without him." While Vic is a solid voice actor, by no means is he the best, and by no means is he the only one who can bring a character like Broly to life. Especially when Broly is only now getting a fleshed out character who is dramatically departed from the one that Vic originally worked on.

True you do have a good point there however when it came to the allegations and scandals surrounding Vic Mignogna, I felt that it ended up hurting his relationship with Rooster Teeth more than it did with FUNimation since he's also famous for voicing Qrow Branwen in RWBY who to be fair actually gets more screen time than Broly does in Dragon Ball. I'll admit that I gone a bit overboard by saying that "it won't be the same without him" though If Sean Schemmel were faced with a similar situation that Vic Mignogna is currently in then it'd be no different. I mean heck If Peter Kalamis could bring a character like Goku to life in the Ocean Group / Pioneer Dub of Dragon Ball Z then whose to say someone other than Sean Schemmel from FUNImation can't? I think the problem is that we've grown so attached to the original English Dub Voice Actors in Dragon Ball to the point where we're too afraid to give someone new a chance.

On 2/9/2019 at 5:49 AM, Denithan said:

On the front of the Japanese Sub, I again don't really feel that there's too much damage being taken on the voice acting front. As it stands, Japanese audiences seem to have no outspoken issues with the voices, and very few of the VAs have expressed a wish to move on from the project. That said, once they do, so long as they handle the "passing of the torch" in an open and respectful manner, then long-term viewership shouldn't suffer. We have seen this before, many times, and while you'll have an initial backlash from the (bordering-on-cultist) fans of the old VAs, as long as it is that VA's choice, and they are open and clear about why they chose that, then viewership shouldn't suffer in the long-term. There'll still be a drop off around the adjustment period where the new VAs are finding their feet and their takes on the characters, but these dips normally pass relatively quickly.

As much as I liked Linda Young as Frieza I've slowly gotten used to Chris Ayres' dub for him and while I do miss Colleen Clinkenbeard as Kid Goku / Kid Gohan I've sort of already gotten used to the changes by now. Now If something were to happen to Masako Nozawa to where she isn't able to voice Goku in the Japanese Sub anymore then I can imagine how upset a lot of Dragon Ball fans could get though much like what they did with replacing Hiromi Tsuru with Aya Hisakawa it was understandable in order to keep the Anime series moving forward. Even If Monica Rial somehow got replaced by a different female voice actor for Bulma it wouldn't bother me as long as she sounds similar though that's yet to be seen and I'd rather not get into Animegate like I did with Gamergate online when I should've kept my mouth shut at the time; but lesson learned.

On 2/9/2019 at 5:49 AM, Denithan said:

Also, sorry that you got the movie spoiled for you, but I need to wonder why you engaged with these YouTubers quite to the degree you did? I'm not a long-term follower of Geekdom, but from what I've seen, he's normally quite good at giving spoiler warnings in advance. Either way, I would still recommend you see the movie since there is a lot to be said about how beautiful and fluid the newer animation was. The plot still has some issues here and there, largely born from Dragon Ball's power scaling, but it was definitely the best Dragon Ball movie to date, and spoilers really shouldn't bar you from enjoying it for what it is.

The problem I have with most Dragon Ball YouTubers is that they only seem to care about lying to viewers in order not to lose any subscribers when they're too afraid to be honest regardless of what happens to their channel. That's why I respect people like Mad Black Entertainment and Hail Zeon who to be fair "quit the Dragon Ball fandom" for the very reason I just pointed out. As for the Broly film, even though I already told one of my friends that I was planning on giving the film a hard pass I may change my mind and still watch it online though I'm mainly going into it for the spectacle and nothing else. Watching the English Dub for Dragon Ball Super has already become a guilty pleasure for me (though not nearly as bad as the Pokémon Anime) when it didn't feel that way when I used to watch reruns of Dragon Ball Z before Dragon Ball Super was conceived.

On 2/9/2019 at 5:49 AM, Denithan said:

And if nothing else, in your statements, you need to be aware that for better or worse, Dragon Ball sustains. Around criticisms of the original, it sustained, around controversy, it has sustained, and against fan outrage, it sustains.
It even sustained having a successor show (GT) that largely "tainted" the show in the eyes of audiences.
Even Toriyama giving up on Dragon Ball, and moving on, even with Toyotaro and the animation studio following in tow, would not stop Dragon Ball at this point. There is too much of a cult(ure) built around it, in the West, but ESPECIALLY in the East, for it die off any time soon and with any ease. Broly's insane viewership has proved that it's still financially viable, FighterZ's popularity is evidence enough of the game's being viable (with Super Dragon Ball Heroes now coming to the West in response to the IP's near-blanket viability), and while there is an outspoken minority voice that held disdain for Super (myself included), the majority voice does not care and was satisfied with it's overall quality.

It's basically become the Star Wars of Anime but to be fair, Star Wars has a much bigger cult following than Dragon Ball does but that's to be expected from a 40 year franchise compared to one that's only been around for 30 years. Does that mean Disney will buy out Dragon Ball? No of course not as they're not as familiar with Japanese culture as much as they are with American culture. Then again the Kingdom Hearts franchise by Square Enix I feel is a bridge connecting both cultures so for Akira Toriyama to sell his franchise to Disney like what George Lucas did with Star Wars actually wouldn't be out of the question.

On 2/9/2019 at 5:49 AM, Denithan said:

Dragon Ball is, kind of horrifically, still growing in size and popularity, and even if Toriyama gives up on it and says there's nothing more he can do with it, Jump will keep it going. Only way off now is for the series to continue long-enough for the world to get sick of it, and with how much ground it has gained since Super launched (especially remembering that early Super was heavily criticized and hated), it would be willfully choosing the facts to not acknowledge that it's going to persist like this for a long time. Whether it's good, or not.

Honestly I think my main gripe with Dragon Ball's recent popularity is the Stereotypical Otaku perceiving it as the ONLY good Anime to watch when there's thousands of other good Anime franchises to choose from that aren't as popularized in the West. If they come to terms that there's more to Anime than just Dragon Ball, Sailor Moon, and Pokémon then that would help broaden and expand their horizons a bit more. The problem I'm seeing is that the Shounen Jump formula keeps chasing the zeitgeist of Dragon Ball to the point where a lot of newer Anime franchises like Black Clover keeps repeating what's already been established instead of being willing to try something new for a change.

Usually you'll end up finding those types of Anime series outside of Shounen since the creators aren't as restrained and have much more freedom to create what they want. I think with the way the Industry has changed over the last few decades it's almost kind of hard to get a unique franchise that captivates audiences as much as Dragon Ball or it's just not advertised and promoted enough to gain the kind of momentum it needs to become more mainstream. Anime / Manga in particular are still considered niche when it comes to pop culture outside Japan so that's to be expected I guess. Video Game Magazine advertisements was one way to get the message across however it's gotten much harder due to the rise of digital over print media.

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22 hours ago, Card Slinger J said:

I do at least try to engage in conversations in a positive light like whenever I'm trying to get feedback on a deck that I'm working on or when I try to offer advice in the hopes that Panini America will listen and apply it to the actual game. I just get tired of feeling disappointed every time I set my expectations too high on something that I want to succeed when it's sort of become a trend that I've gotten used to over the years I guess. I apologize If I came off being mostly negative on the forums but that was mainly in hopes that Panini America would actually take the complaints we had and improve upon the problems onto the actual game in a positive light.

Honestly mate, that's completely fair. There is a lot of legitimate criticism to be levied at Panini America, and a HELL of a lot of criticism to be levied at Dragon Ball nowadays.
For the record, I didn't mean my comment as a dig at you, nor was I trying to make you feel bad. It's just concerning how frustrated you seem to be, to the point that it seems like the IP just stresses you out nowadays.
But hey, if you're enjoying the English dub (even as a guilty pleasure), more power to you man. God knows, I watched/read Bleach to the end as a guilty pleasure, regardless of how utterly terrible it got.
Also, this got really long, so I'm going to section it to make it easier to read:

Vic

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I actually don't know how much I can comment on his relationship with Rooster Teeth. That relationship always struck me as a massive anomaly on both parties behalves, and as being somewhat distinct. I could never, and still can't, come up with a reason behind those feelings though.

I will say that I don't think the allegations are so bad they're completely career ending so much as stunting (at least, none of allegations I've seen?), but coupled with the growing toxicity within his fandom, and quite specifically the rhetoric employed by those trying to defend him, I think a lot of companies are going to hesitant to associate with him in the near future. After all, it's growing to the extent where to associate with him is to give power to this rhetoric, and I think that's where we get into how this could be potentially much more devastating to his career. Essentially, he is forced to distance himself from these fans so as to save what is left of his image, which further harms his own following, and if the rhetoric continues to snowball past that, then his name and image will ultimately be branded by this entire affair.

I actually studied this kind of phenomenon in a public relations course a few years ago, and while I can't remember it's name, it's morbidly fascinating to observe it in real time.
Now, this isn't to say that things couldn't get better for Vic. He is not in a lose-lose situation as yet, but it's really hard to predict where it will go.

Voice Actors

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Onto voice actors, I ultimately think you're right. I think fan communities tend to struggle with the reality that these voice actors aren't these characters, and that they aren't what make these characters likeable. They definitely play a role in bringing life to them, but to hold them on such a pedestal is to take all power from the artists who are responsible for their body language, the writers who are responsible for the actual personality of the character, and the design of the character. As you've said, there are plenty of voice actors capable of voicing Broly, just as there are plenty who can voice Goku and Vegeta.
This point kind of makes a connection between the cult following and how communities are with voice actors, but this is largely rooted in nostalgia and familiarity. Humans have an innate distrust and dislike of the unfamiliar,  and when that familiar thing is rooted in childhood memories, or even just positive emotion, this is amplified dramatically.



Cult Followings (Star Wars V Dragon Ball)

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I think you're right in that Star Wars has more of a cult-following. I think that's just actually because it became nostalgic earlier than Dragon Ball.
Dragon Ball was only really introduced to the west in the mid-to-late 90s, so the people who grew up watching it have only recently reached adulthood. Star Wars had a solid head-start on this though, launching in 1977, so when Dragon Ball was first taking off, Star Wars had already become nostalgic. As it became nostalgic, the people who grew up with it introduced it to their children and became gradually more protective of it. With that, it became nostalgic for that next generation as well, and this is EXACTLY what we're seeing with Dragon Ball currently.

The generation that grew up with it has had kids, and has shown it to their kids, and are now likely watching Super WITH their kids. So long as Jump plays their cards right, this IP will likely take off to the same extent that Star Wars has, and so long as they're careful not to step into any cracks, they'll be able to continue it for a LONG time.


Anime in the Digital Era

 

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On your last point of it being harder in a digital age to advertise a unique product that really captivates audiences, I really need to disagree. Honestly, the digital age has really enabled what were traditionally cult products to really flourish into niche markets, and this REALLY extends to anime. I think the main fault here is a failure to adapt technologies, broadcasting methods, and how these things are put into the public space.
And of course, I'm not talking about SEO-optimization here. There is some level of truth warranted there, and there's plenty of research to show it's value. But this problem goes much deeper than just visibility. There are also problems with availability, framing and presence. This is especially true for the anime community, as there is an entire culture built around pirating series out of necessity; Quite often, these shows were never broadcasted in the West, or if they were, they were done so at incredibly unsociable hours which killed their potential viewer-base. Further compounding the issue, the lack of infrastructure in place to localize these animes resulted in them being REALLY expensive to buy, and it was almost exclusively marketed as being "for kids" at the time, which killed any access it had to a demographic with disposable income.
Basically, all the cards were played wrong when anime was first being localized, and that bred into a culture where young people who couldn't buy or consume legally were instead forced to pirate or entirely forego the interest. That culture has since evolved, but... I mean, you can find Dragon Ball Super: Broly on YouTube in its entirety*.
(Making a quick note here: I actually think the main issue currently faced by anime is its framing; specifically how the anime community itself frames it.)

One IP that I think is actually handling this transition really well is the Gundam IP. A large number of their series are readily available to be watched for free on YouTube and other sites, which enables them to monetize the product while making it readily available to anyone who is interested, or might be interested. They have a strong, and pretty consistent, presence on social media which keeps them in public view, and they're doing some amazing work with changing the framing around Gundam from "mechas beat each-other," to emphasizing that they're generally emotionally and philosophically driven dramas with some good characters. Just look at how differently they're presenting themselves as compared to how Cartoon Network used to, and how much more of an active (international) community they have.

Another model which actually works super well is the one being employed by Bushiroad. The Vanguard and Buddyfight animes are both readily available online, and very public. Beyond that, adverts are shown as PART of the video (almost exclusively for Bushi's own product, but the model is what I'm focusing on), which allows them to further monetize the product without having to rely on third-parties like YouTube, or on merchandise sales (if you let third-parties buy the advert slot).
I would argue that its availability alone plays a ridiculous role in its continuation, and the company's ability to continue making ends meet.

Neither model is perfect, especially for smaller anime companies that can't afford to forego selling the broadcasting rights, but for the larger companies, these models are entirely feasible and likely just as viable (if not more viable) than their current distribution models.

Manga is the one that has a really hard time in the digital media, and like fuuuuuuuu*k do I know how to monetize that.
(Also, the only qualification I actually have to talk on any of this shit is a Bachelor of Professional Communication, Business Studies and Journalism, so take it with a grain of salt. I've only really studied this stuff insofar as it can be monetized/made more public, and I've never really looked into the optics of distribution.)


On the topic of the thread though, tell me if you ever do give Broly a shot. I'm actually pretty down to talk about the good and the bad of the movie.
Shit, give me a holler if you wanna talk about any of this stuff, it's all pretty fascinating to me.

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Well since you talked me into it I went ahead and watched the dubbed version of the new Broly film online. My initial reaction is that it felt kind of rushed where the battle choreography was solid but wasn't as fluid as Classic Dragon Ball where there was more emphasis on animation cels than CGI similar to the high quality of Jim Henson puppetry from Classic Star Wars. I do feel as though there was a huge missed opportunity with Goku not being able to go MUI against Broly though they needed to make Gogeta canon somehow so I guess that's understandable. The Dragon Ball Minus backstory bothered me a little bit but wasn't as bad as I initially thought though.

I'm waiting to see how this film ties in with the Galactic Patrol arc in the Dragon Ball Super Manga since Broly, Cheelai, and her other friend haven't shown up yet. Maro is shaping up to be a more interesting villain than Zamasu where he was basically Turles 2.0. Also I can't help but not get as excited as I used to be since the Dragon Balls themselves always seem to negate the threat of death with each new set introduced throughout the franchise with the Black Star Dragon Balls from Dragon Ball GT being the only exception. I guess you could make a similar case for the Super Dragon Balls as well even though Whis can already do the work himself.

Bulma's wish was a direct reference to the End of Z where she regretted not using the Earth's Dragon Balls to make herself 5 years younger though Frieza's wish was just a ripoff of Commander Red from Original Dragon Ball, even still the Red Ribbon Army reference was cute to say the least. I was kind of hoping for some extra scenes at the end credits similar to what the MCU has been doing which kind of felt like a sense of reward after everyone's already walked out of the theater. Now I'm just hoping that when the TV Series returns this Spring that it isn't another movie retelling like they've done in the past with Battle of Gods and Resurrection 'F'.

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35 minutes ago, Card Slinger J said:

Well since you talked me into it I went ahead and watched the dubbed version of the new Broly film online. My initial reaction is that it felt kind of rushed where the battle choreography was solid but wasn't as fluid as Classic Dragon Ball where there was more emphasis on animation cels than CGI similar to the high quality of Jim Henson puppetry from Classic Star Wars. I do feel as though there was a huge missed opportunity with Goku not being able to go MUI against Broly though they needed to make Gogeta canon somehow so I guess that's understandable. The Dragon Ball Minus backstory bothered me a little bit but wasn't as bad as I initially thought though.

On the point of missed opportunities, I wasn't so much bothered by the lack of MUI, but more so by the lack of the forms preceding it. Where was Blue Evolution, and Kaioken x20? Honestly, the impression it leaves is that Goku and Vegeta either dicked around too much to access their strongest forms, or that Broly wasn't yet such a threat that those forms were necessary.
That said, I think those missed opportunities come back to how inflated the movie was. Going by what Toriyama was saying going into the movie, and by the novelization of the movie, there was a LOT that had to be cut out to make it as short as it was. Adding to that, I imagine they had to cut out the Frieza V Broly fight (which still felt really janky to me at the end, where Whis jumps in), and they probably had to cut out those final forms.

The dragon ball point is something that honestly is just a plague to the show in general, and it's what made things like Trunks' future and the Shadow Dragon Arc in GT work. They're a narrative device which originally had a lot of holes to jump through, but that got made way too generalized to the point where they're just harmful. Back when the body needed to be preserved, and you had to know where it was, and where there were pretty clear limits to it's power, it was fine. They served a similar narrative purpose, but there was still some real risk at hand if the body was destroyed.

Unfortunately, I do think they're going to do a movie recap when the series relaunches, but honestly, I'll still probably give it a watch. Just, given how much they (supposedly) had to cut out of the movie in order to make it the right length, I think there's a lot they could add that we've straight up not seen. Kind of like the scenes where we got to see Goku and Vegeta first find Blue. There's some genuine value to retreading these waters if they do so, but my god, I really hope they don't do it like they did with Battle of Gods and RoF. That shit was rough.

I do want to throw out there that I am glad for what we got. I liked having a story that didn't focus too much on Goku and Vegeta, but more on a new character that we've not really gotten to know. I'm glad that they didn't go with this stupid destined children, born at the same time nonsense that was put forward in the trailers. I loved seeing King Cold again, if only briefly, and I really hope that we get to see more of his legacy as the series continues (as I think it's one of the few interesting things leftover from Z they can chase). I liked that the movie didn't focus TOO much on the Broly fight (which was the part I liked the least); it was still a large part of the movie, but it didn't take the dominant part of the run-time, and the focus was definitely more on the history of the Saiyans and on introducing new characters. That said, while I enjoyed the first half of the fight, I could take it or leave it after Broly transformed. At that point, it got a bit too hectic and all-over the place to really satisfy any kind of itch, or to clearly see what the characters were doing.

I also really liked how much of a great job they did with some of Broly's expressions, especially when you see him recoiling from Gogeta Blue in fear. How you see his pupils, his expression, and how his body is shaking. That was something I haven't seen in Dragon Ball before, and I think that level of focus on body language does a lot to build a more reserved character like Broly.

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4 hours ago, Denithan said:

On the point of missed opportunities, I wasn't so much bothered by the lack of MUI, but more so by the lack of the forms preceding it. Where was Blue Evolution, and Kaioken x20? Honestly, the impression it leaves is that Goku and Vegeta either dicked around too much to access their strongest forms, or that Broly wasn't yet such a threat that those forms were necessary.
That said, I think those missed opportunities come back to how inflated the movie was. Going by what Toriyama was saying going into the movie, and by the novelization of the movie, there was a LOT that had to be cut out to make it as short as it was. Adding to that, I imagine they had to cut out the Frieza V Broly fight (which still felt really janky to me at the end, where Whis jumps in), and they probably had to cut out those final forms.

Unfortunately, I do think they're going to do a movie recap when the series relaunches, but honestly, I'll still probably give it a watch. Just, given how much they (supposedly) had to cut out of the movie in order to make it the right length, I think there's a lot they could add that we've straight up not seen. Kind of like the scenes where we got to see Goku and Vegeta first find Blue. There's some genuine value to retreading these waters if they do so, but my god, I really hope they don't do it like they did with Battle of Gods and RoF. That shit was rough.

Goku and Vegeta have always dicked around when it came to fusion and when they didn't it wasn't even considered canon. That's why that gag is mostly preserved for Gotenks whose nothing more than a joke character. Also Dragon Ball needs to focus less on new forms and more on techniques that are as creative as when Goku fired a Kamehameha with his bare feet instead of his hands. In terms of new forms how close are we to Super Saiyan Rainbow?

If you want to talk about how much was cut from the Broly film then try to justify stretching an 85 minute film like Battle of Gods over the course of 14 episodes in the retelling and then doing it again later in Resurrection 'F' where the animation budget was limited from the original films. At least they won't end up making the same mistake they made last time with the Anime being ahead of the Manga when it should've been the other way around. The Tournament of Power arc was a good stopping point for the TV Series honestly.

4 hours ago, Denithan said:

I do want to throw out there that I am glad for what we got. I liked having a story that didn't focus too much on Goku and Vegeta, but more on a new character that we've not really gotten to know. I'm glad that they didn't go with this stupid destined children, born at the same time nonsense that was put forward in the trailers. I loved seeing King Cold again, if only briefly, and I really hope that we get to see more of his legacy as the series continues (as I think it's one of the few interesting things leftover from Z they can chase). I liked that the movie didn't focus TOO much on the Broly fight (which was the part I liked the least); it was still a large part of the movie, but it didn't take the dominant part of the run-time, and the focus was definitely more on the history of the Saiyans and on introducing new characters. That said, while I enjoyed the first half of the fight, I could take it or leave it after Broly transformed. At that point, it got a bit too hectic and all-over the place to really satisfy any kind of itch, or to clearly see what the characters were doing.

I guess it's better than doing something similar to Boruto Generations which is what the Dragon Ball GT Special could've been but wasn't. Having a new Dragon Ball series that takes place a century after the end of Dragon Ball GT where the Earth's Dragon Balls couldn't be used seemed like it had alot of potential that the fan base just wasn't willing to accept since they've grown too attached to the original cast. I get the argument that Dragon Ball is supposed to be the "Story of Goku" but I feel that it could've been much more than that. Dragon Ball Super just feels like the franchise itself is stuck on some awkward halfway point that's too afraid to go past the End of Z because of the potential backlash it'll create among fans (myself included).

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Oh, I'm straight up not even trying to justify what the anime did with the BoG and RoF retellings, just that there was some merit to the new scenes. As I said, I REALLY don't want a repeat of that shit, but a retread of the Broly arc which spends more time exploring Saiyan culture in the flashbacks, that lets us see more of the fight between Frieza and Broly, and maybe at least mentions the fact that the fight broke through dimensions could have some merit. There are some pretty interesting things that could be explored in Broly, like Cheelai's background, what life in the Frieza Force is like to ordinary soldiers like Lemo, and heck, even some more scenes of Broly growing up and how Paragus was with him could give the story some extra depth.
I have NO faith in them to do any of this, but it's there. It just flat out wasn't even THERE for BoG or RoF in the first place, so those were both doomed from the get-go.

And I agree that Dragon Ball needs to focus less on new forms, but there is still an issue in that the genie is out of the bottle with Evolution and Kaioken. And the main thing that's bothersome is that there didn't even really need to be an extended fight scene with these forms; at the end of the day, they're both just changes to Blue's aura, and it would've been easy to draw the respective auras on Goku and Vegeta when they fired the Galick Kamehameha. Just that little visual tick signifies to us the full levity of Broly's threat. That said, I do hope for a Fourth-Grade/Full Power-esque explanation for Blue if they do retread the water here. Something that makes Kaioken and Evolution power-ups irrelevant.

Also, it hits me now that the movie full-well could've followed the manga's timeline, and that the implication could've been Goku and Vegeta using SSB-Full Power, which... I'm actually kind of down for?

Also, if I'm honest, I really didn't take to the whole Goku Jr./Vegeta Jr. thing that GT tried to lead off into. It was never really an issue of it not being Goku for me though; I'd quite like a series following Gohan, Goten, or even Pan. Heck, I'd be down for an Uub-led tale without all the Saiyan tack, even after Goku's "left forever." But if we're going to do a "next generations" thing, then let it be a NEXT generation. Not just a rehash of Goku, with a character who looks like him, has a lot of his traits, and uses his same techniques. That's not a next generation, that's a cop-out and an excuse to remaster the same exact story, even with the same rival. I honestly think if you're going to do a next gen for Dragon Ball, then go all in and don't just redo the Dragon Ball of yesteryear.

I agree that Super is an awkward middle point, and what's sad is that it didn't need to be. I bring it up a lot, but it's honestly one of the things that the Future Trunks Saga showed me. There are plenty of ways to give us compelling stories throughout this universe with lasting, permanent consequences that wouldn't interfere with the end of Z, and those consequences could do wonders for the show. Heck, they COULD have done an entire rehash of the Shadow Dragon Saga, and make it so that the End of Z was a world without Dragon Balls (which also adds extra layers of humor to Bulma's frustrations).

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